The future of shotgun sports

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Salopian

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 5, 2011
Messages
5,023
Excuse me from having a Victor Meldrew moment.

Could I ask what the future holds for shotgun sports when it is revealed that BASC have allegedly contributed to the research paper being used by the WWT to press for a total ban of leadshot. BASC representatives have also allegedly been involved in talks to implement the phasing out of leadshot and are allegedly involved in how this can be best done, whilst at the same time saying that they are fighting for lead and opposing any further restrictions.

Secondly why do we not select our proven best candidates for representation in the Olympics.

How on Earth could Charlotte Kerwood be selected in preference to Abbey Burton? Do we not select people of proven ability and currently in form?

 
Shooting as we know it will never be the same when lead is banned. Has anyone asked the MLAGB for their views as W Harriman, the BASC bloke is President of the MLAGB and I would have thought they would be in the same boat as us when the ban comes in.

I know that J Harradine from BASC has in conjunction with J Parks-Young has been experimenting and trying to find a suitable replacement for lead, trying various types of shot etc;

Regarding the Oylmpics, I believe that the selection process was changed a few years ago, as all the best shots were declared to be too old.

It beggars belief though that the better shot of the two has been left out though.

I am not a fan of Taekwondo but Britains No 1 has not been selected either so it's not just shooting at fault.

 
Excuse me from having a Victor Meldrew moment.

Could I ask what the future holds for shotgun sports when it is revealed that BASC have allegedly contributed to the research paper being used by the WWT to press for a total ban of leadshot. BASC representatives have also allegedly been involved in talks to implement the phasing out of leadshot and are allegedly involved in how this can be best done, whilst at the same time saying that they are fighting for lead and opposing any further restrictions.

Secondly why do we not select our proven best candidates for representation in the Olympics.

How on Earth could Charlotte Kerwood be selected in preference to Abbey Burton? Do we not select people of proven ability and currently in form?
As a new fan of the sport, can you tell me why lead is under threat?
 
I believe that the current WWT push for a ban on lead shot is disguised in a theory that lead is dangerous to humans when consumed in shot game.

There is,or was, an investigation into the possible dangers of lead shot by an organisation called the Lead Ammunition Group.This was comprised of various interested parties except,believe it or not,the CPSA.

Remember that the CPSA supposedly represent the largest group of lead shot users in the country.

I and many others have grave doubts about the BASC's true feelings about lead shot.

I would suggest that dentists have made more money out of lead shot in game birds than undertakers have.

If lead shot were to be banned the only viable,affordable alternative is steel,actually iron but this would mean drastic changes to clay shooting as we know it.

Vic.

 
The reason for my Meldrew moment was brought about by reading a thread on PigeonWatchUK under the sub-heading General Shooting Matters the thread is WWT plans to ban Lead. It currently runs to 28 pages and ongoing, but the last three or four pages have indicated that the BASC spokesman may be being economical with the truth. Last couple of pages have given links to documents and letters showing that BASC is assisting in bringing in a lead shot ban, and that they were paid to compile a report for the WWT which is now being used to press for a Lead shot ban.

FOR SALE

7 MIROKU MK38'S GRADE 5

1 BERETTA SO

1 BERETTA 686 20BORE NONE SUITABLE FOR USE WITH STEEL SHOT

1 MIROKU MK60 28BORE

1 B.RIZZINI 12 BORE

Oh just ring me I'm sure that I've got something that you would like to buy.

 
The reason for my Meldrew moment was brought about by reading a thread on PigeonWatchUK under the sub-heading General Shooting Matters the thread is WWT plans to ban Lead. It currently runs to 28 pages and ongoing, but the last three or four pages have indicated that the BASC spokesman may be being economical with the truth. Last couple of pages have given links to documents and letters showing that BASC is assisting in bringing in a lead shot ban, and that they were paid to compile a report for the WWT which is now being used to press for a Lead shot ban.

FOR SALE

7 MIROKU MK38'S GRADE 5

1 BERETTA SO

1 BERETTA 686 20BORE NONE SUITABLE FOR USE WITH STEEL SHOT

1 MIROKU MK60 28BORE

1 B.RIZZINI 12 BORE

Oh just ring me I'm sure that I've got something that you would like to buy.
If there ain't no lead, there ain't no sales mate! :( :huh: :(

We should march! Somewhere...... :huh:

 
I think the phrase "viable, cost effective alternative" is paramount. At this moment in time there is none, Period. Steel is not a viable alternative as has been discussed before it is by far ballistically inferior and will render many older guns un-useable.

 
Are there just a few of us who is taking this seriously, as it will affect all clay shooters.

 
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It will affect all clay shooters but by and large clay shooters are apathetic.

It's not their problem,whatever 'it' is,'someone will sort it out' is a common line of thought or when 'it' happens,'why didn't someone do something about it?'

I agree that steel is 'ballistically inferior but there is nothing else that anyone could afford to shoot in the quantity that we use now.

Yes some older guns are not currently proofed for steel but it is possible that many would pass a steel proofing,obviously at some expense to the owner.

With regard to disciplines,skeet is OK with steel and probably DTL would be.If it isn't change it to single barrel.

The other trap disciplines would have to be slowed down a bit.

The various forms of sporting would also have to change to take into account the deficiencies of steel shot but it is possible and steel shot need not mean the end of clay shooting.

The oft quoted problem with steel is said to be ricochets so does anyone have concrete evidence that it is a problem,has anyone witnessed it?

If there is a problem then is it any worse than the existing problem of being hit by stray bits of clay,that's why we all wear hats and glasses don't we?

The most likely areas to cause a problem are the back of a DTL trap house and less likely,the face of a skeet house.Both could be covered with soft,easily replaceable material.

Some grounds have been reported as banning steel shot,in the event that steel was introduced,how many would 'unban it' or go out of business?

Vic.

 
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Vic,

I think your last line refers to banning steel shot?

The problem I see is that BASC say they represent shooters interests but actually all they are doing is running a very profitable business.

All our representative bodies are accepting science and argument from environmentalists and quoting and publishing figures gleaned from documents produced by American 'green' organisations who want lead phased out.

There are not many documents available from British research showing that we actually have an issue of the proportions claimed by the American or Danish authorities.

Interesting to note that there are no protestations coming from Italy & Spain, both major manufacturers of Lead shot cartridges, there are no endorsements from Sweden/Norway or major timber producing countries that are pro-steel, in fact Sweden has expressed concern about using steel in woodlands due to safety concerns over the use of chainsaws.

It is all very well saying that Steel can be used successfully if we alter the range of the targets but if we cannot show that we have a real issue here in the UK why are we toadying to the European bureaucrats?

 
europe will be disbanded in the near future :) . the basc are not representing uk shooters :eek: .they either have big investment in steel shot or they are thick. no shooting=no basc.

 
isn't the ban in reference to shooting game, wildfowl (already in place for foreshore), bunnys etc and not clay shooting ?? I already know of one ground i use (west kent) which has banned steel due to damage it causes to trees and also noise levels (so i believe) so if it does inc clay shooting then i don't know what they would do

 
Shooting as we know it will never be the same when lead is banned. Has anyone asked the MLAGB for their views as W Harriman, the BASC bloke is President of the MLAGB and I would have thought they would be in the same boat as us when the ban comes in.

I know that J Harradine from BASC has in conjunction with J Parks-Young has been experimenting and trying to find a suitable replacement for lead, trying various types of shot etc;

Regarding the Oylmpics, I believe that the selection process was changed a few years ago, as all the best shots were declared to be too old.

It beggars belief though that the better shot of the two has been left out though.n I am not a fan of Taekwondo but Britains No 1 has not been selected either so it's not just shooting at fault.

There is no suitable replacement for lead shot at present. PERIOD.

As for the Olympic places at Woolwich, I think they are selected, and not by their prowess at shooting.

I think the phrase "viable, cost effective alternative" is paramount. At this moment in time there is none, Period. Steel is not a viable alternative as has been discussed before it is by far ballistically inferior and will render many older guns un-useable.

On the money.

If there were an alternative to lead, it would be in use now, not been under experimentation by Parks-Young and Harradine.

I would not bet my wages on BASC putting their shoulder to the door holding off the lead banning brigade. It seems to me they would be more akin to holding the bloody door open.

 
This issue is more important than any other and will affect shotgun sports so markedly it will never be the same again should lead be banned. Tim Woodhouse is working tirelessly on our behalf to fend off this ban and is being met with heavy resistance from many quarters - including BASC who are certainly not supporting our cause in any shape or form. Have a look at www.fourten.org.uk and take heed of the warnings you see there.

 
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Whilst I agree that we do not need a ban on lead shot and should not have it imposed upon us as there is no scientific evidence whatsoever that lead shot is harmful to human health. There is however a big but; I think with the march of the environmentalists and the growing need of both the 3 mainstream political parties and the European mob who really pull the strings, to throw them (green)crumbs every so often, that a lead shot ban is inevitable. Might not be soon, might be ten years or more away but the politicians can afford to ignore the facts and sacrifice us shooters in order to appear green to the majority, uneducated voters. They've done it before with other issues such as the hunting ban and sure as eggs is eggs they'll do it with lead. Fight it we will and should but when has fact and reason ever held any sway with politicians especially at election time?

I've not looked into the controversy of BASCs involvement with this issue but I wouldn't mind betting that they are taking the pragmatic approach, fight as best you can but accept the inevitable and prepare for change, to just blindly fight until that fateful day when the ban comes in and stand there with your thumb up your arse wondering what to do next is the action of a dinosaur not that of a progressive, intelligent organisation!

Unlike the majority of posters on here I don't think the banning of lead shot will be the end of shooting sports, I have just returned from my second visit to Holland to compete (badly) in the Dorhout Mees GP, a 200 bird FITASC sporting competition this in a country that has had a total ban on lead shot since 2002 :frown: :frown: :frown:

So, along with others from this forum we both saw and demonstrated that modern steel cartridges from all the major manufacturers will effectively and consistently break clays through all chokes out to ranges that the doom merchants say are impossible, anyone who witnessed both the Champions League finals and the top 6 shootout at the above mentioned shoot would have seen clays broken at 60 yards, not once but time and time again. At normal English Sporting distances 24g 7s would be more than sufficient as proved by our very own ELVIS, his usual gun is a 34" Miroku, he shot a borrowed 30" Beretta, he shoots left handed and the Beretta was right handed, he shoots 24g lead loads at home so he shot 24g steel in Holland. Result was a top ten finish overall and a resounding win in the veterans category :D Speaking to Dutch & Danish shooters I asked them about ricochets, they all looked a little puzzled and said it was not a problem and had never heard of it being so. Now all the ballistics experts will say it can't be done, you can't consistently break clays over 30 yards and if you try you'll be peppered in lethal shot bouncing back off everything including leaves.

It works, not as well as lead but well enough for 99% of us to hardly notice the difference, barrels will not bulge or blow up, eardrums will not be shattered but, in the words of a wise man, if you point the bloody thing in the right place the clay will break, maybe into 50 pieces not 100 but the same wise man said if it breaks in two and the ref sees it it's a kill. You don't get an extra points for a ball of dust.

Game shooting will be affected more, I suspect that steel isn't a viable alternative to lead but tungsten, bismuth and the other non toxic alternatives are available and as game shooting is such an expensive sport to begin with at let's say an average of £30 +VAT a bird the relatively small extra amount on cartridges is hardly going to break the bank. Can't imagine many who are paying upwards of £500 per day calling off because their cartridge bill for the day has gone up by 50 quid! Walked up and rough shooters may only fire 10 or even 20 shells a day, won't break the bank if they change to a non toxic alternative. Pigeon shooters will, I suspect, have to change to steel and limit their shots to 40 yards, will test their decoying skill a bit more. The only winner will be dentists as biting down on a steel pellet will result in much pain and discomfort.

So in my humble opinion it's inevitable, no-one wants it, the world doesn't need it but we are pawns in a bigger game and the majority of the populous will think the world will be a bit greener and cleaner. Shooting will continue and not too much differently than we all enjoy today so fight it but be prepared to lose.

Mr Potter

 
Good post Mr Potter.

I have said before that if lead was replaced by steel it would not mean the end of clay shooting,some adjustments would have to be made during a transition period but no gloom and doom end as some people choose to believe.

Sadly,what would possibly happen is that older guns that are not currently steel proofed may be obsolete. When was the steel proofing requirement introduced,the 80's,the 90's ?

Is the shot component of a cartridge the biggest proportion of the cost,at £130/1000 for Gamebore 24gm 7's in steel, that seems excessive to me. Would we be ripped off even more by the cartridge manufacturers in the event that we lost lead?

Vic.

 

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