To Multi-choke or Not to Multi-choke..That is the question

[Geordieboy]

Afternoon all

So then, a rather innocuous  request about multi-choking has has me chastised for chewing up the bore of a perazzi!  I own a Perazzi HPX DSR MX12 which has been teague choked.  I use 2 x 3/4 chokes for the majority of my shooting with a Cylinder and 1/4 in my pocket in case of a 10yd target on English Sporting Clays.  I recently patterned my gun with the 3/4 chokes and found it delivered a nice 30" pattern with the Official Sporting cartridges I use at 30yds.  To tighten up I pop in a Golden trap and that does the business of holding a tighter pattern for longer targets or edge on.  (I've seen 8's ping off ABT Orange clays with the sun on them).

Thing is....are we better off with 2 x fixed chokes or getting them Multi-choked?  As an Engineer......the final diameter would determine the final pattern size, and the step you have in the barrel with the Mult-chokes would have little effect on the final pattern.  However......I am not a gunsmith!  I am more than happy with the results I get with the Teagues.  But has anybody patterned a fixed choke gun to a multi-choked one?

Pics are always a good way to get people to stick their noses in on a thread!

 

[Hamster]

Not quite sure exactly what you're asking here, if your gun is already multi choked then what difference does it make ? Or are you asking whether there is a detectable difference between the patterns thrown by a fixed choke as opposed to one that is multi'd ? 

The 100% irrefutable reality is that you WILL miss close targets with a tightly choked gun regardless of whether it's multi choke or not and you WILL miss distant edge on ones with open chokes, again, regardless. The only difference is what you personally can live with, i.e, top experts won't suffer to anywhere near the degree you and I might. 

FWIW I don't for one second believe that fixed chokes throw definably superior patterns (and I'm prepared to put my mouth where my money is) but understand the case for them. 

 

[ChrisPackham]

I think there is a logic to having changeable chokes if you are a serious clay shot, but I’m not sure the current plethora of interim chokes is needed, I think that tight (maybe ¾) medium (maybe ic) and open (sleet) would be enough range for most people.

Personally, unless I’m shooting skeet I leave my clay gun as ¼ and ½, I find I miss more targets due to fiddling or worrying about choke than I gain (same for switchable lenses in glasses and cartridges)

I prefer fixed choke for game shooting as I wouldn’t want the indecision distraction, this is helped by only using sxs for game

 

[FreeShot]

Either way - It comes down to what you truly believe...and then what you truly do.

Not many are up to fixed chokes.

 

[Geordieboy]

I would like to see...irrefutable evidence that a fixed choke gun throws neater patterns than a Multi-choked gun!  

Thats a lot to ask I know...but we all LOVE images of patterns on here!  :angel:

Truthfully....I'd like to be that good that I believed that I was a AAA English Sporting shot and that I had 110% confidence in my ability to shoot with 2 x 3/4 chokes.  But I am not...and I don't.....therefore Multi-choke it is until that point!!!!

 

[squimp]

It will be very easy to get into a very esoteric discussion here.....

You have partly answered your own question by saying that your 3/4 (multi) choke throws a tighter pattern with one cartridge as compared to another.

In the olden days (before multichokes), the top London gunmakers employed regulators. Their job was to 'fettle' barrels and chokes to produce particular pellet counts at specified ranges with a specified cartridge. Allegedly, these guys practised a dark art and were much in demand within the gun trade. It would be hard to imagine how a multichoke could produce a 'better'  pattern. Indeed a friend has an old Purdey 20 bore side by side and that gun seems to throw truly impressive patterns; judging by the serious pheasants that it kills with relatively light loads. And yes it was regulated by one of the top guys.

However in the modern world, I try and do several jobs with the same gun  - so I use Teague multichokes and am very happy with them. Conversely, I did once have a gun with factory chokes and was surprised to find that when I pattern tested it, the suggested choke markings bore little relation to the patterns that they actually threw. The 3/4 was considerably looser than the 1/2 I seem to recall.

Surely the answer is to actually test what your gun does with specific cartridge/choke combinations and go from there.

And if we are talking about pattern testing, has anybody tried a 32 gram fibre game cartridge thru' a modern heavily over-bored gun (like a DT11) and documented the result?? 

 

[schmokinn]

Had my Perazzi taken out to half and half..never seen better patterns and i have tried a lot of multichokes and different cartridges.

Fiochi F3 pisons break anything and Bior for the closer stuff.

 

[MartynB]

For what it’s worth , very recently I patterned a Miroku MK 38 at 15, 20, and 30 yards with 3/4 and Full Fixed . Then repeated that when it came back from Teague Precision . What it told me  was if I wanted the Chokes that tight there was zero benefit in spending all that money .  Going from there  playing about a bit It also showed me that at 30 yds a 3/8” choke would not take any prisoners clay target wise .  So I summise that it depends on your personal ability and what you are going to use the gun for .  For my own plans  as a social plodder who last shot registered 20 years ago , and  might shoot some trap , generally shoot sporting , and is looking , in retirement to get a bit of syndicate  game shooting . the flexibility of having a gun multichoked was worth while. 

Ps for  general shooting , for what it’s worth  use 3/8 5/8 mainly because that’s what is in my other gun , and  often just use the barrel selector  on pairs where the tighter choke would make more sense as a first shot . Changing chokes stand to stand is a balls ache when you only play at it ! 

 

[FreeShot]

I would like to see...irrefutable evidence that a fixed choke gun throws neater patterns than a Multi-choked gun!

Not going to happen. I have a couple of same load patterns through fixed Browning Ultra (3/4, 1/1) and multi choked Miroku MK 70 to compare – nothing to write home about. I do believe tho, that every barrel has a sweet spot choke range for majority of cartridges – for MK 70 being somewhere between 0.012 and 0.018 – that would correspond to ½-3/4  factory Browning Invector + or 3/8 – ½ Teague chokes – that is my belief that I trust – yours might differ.

And if we are talking about pattern testing, has anybody tried a 32 gram fibre game cartridge thru' a modern heavily over-bored gun (like a DT11) and documented the result?? 

Miroku Mk70, Hull Driven Grouse, 30g,  No 5.5, 1/4 (0.010) Teague at 21m:

 

[Jonny English]

 I recently patterned my gun with the 3/4 chokes and found it delivered a nice 30" pattern with the Official Sporting cartridges I use at 30yds.

I have an invector ds teague 1/4 choke that delivers that exact same pattern at that distance, possibly even a little tighter. Question is which is technically correct, I suspect your choke is correct at 30" and my 1/4 should be more like 36". Just showes that there is a massive difference from one multi choke to another in any case.

 

[Cosmicblue]

Ahhh Steve and it's not even a April the 1st yet.....I sense a mischievous tease of the assembled parties!

As time has progressed I've concluded that the whole 'choke thing' is mostly a head-game which adds yet another variable to the mix of parameters that determine whether a target will get broken - or not.   Shotguns,  whilst beautifully made precision pieces of engineering actually use ammunition that is inconsistent at best and a long, long way from being perfectly repeatable, the mere idea of accelerating a pile of spherical soft lead pellets from zero to supersonic or faster in a little over 30".   If that wasn't already a sufficient challenge for soft lead shot to make it out of the muzzle unscathed as the barrels have restrictions, namely forcing cones and then chokes, all of which serve to mangle and misshapen our unfortunate projectiles still more.

Great emphasis is placed on pattern plate results however have any of us ever seen exactly the same pattern thrown twice?  No, it can't happen because the soft shot sees different pellets damaged every time.

We can miss a target, in front, behind, above and below (all variables in their own right) and most times, irrespective of choke used if the lead shot is in the right place it will break the clay.  We know that the small shot sizes, i.e. 9s run out of inertia for long range targets though conversely I've also found that 8s out of my fixed choke DSR will break almost anything encountered on an average clay ground.  I have come to believe that having interchangeable chokes provides a shooter with the perception that they are throwing a broader or narrower pattern whereas the truth could actually be that they were simply in the right place when they pulled the trigger and the diameter of the pattern was more of a head-thing than reality.

When I bought my 1st HPX SR1 Perazzi  JJ tried in vain to convince me that fixed choke and change cartridges was the way to go - Dunderhead here though better and had Brileys put in...  When I changed it for the DSR a couple of years ago I took the great man's advice and haven't looked back, one less thing for my 1 bit brain to worry about and another variable taken out of the equation.  

 

[Will Hewland]

All I know is, if I hit a clay with 273 pellets and not 296, my day is ruined.  THIS is the area of shooting most important to your total experience and progress. Keep this thread going, please!

 

[Salopian]

Will,

 Interestingly the distant edge on Battue we shot on Sunday was hit and broken convincingly with  1/4, 3/8, Muller U2 , 1/2 and Full choke , so what is the answer?

I believe it to be what ever you are confident with . I used to always shoot fixed choke Miroku Full and Xtra Full 0.040 " & 0.044" Brian Hebditch thought I was grossly overchoked as he never used more than 1/4 & 1/2 , but I was hitting them .

Now with the popularity of FITASC I do see 3/4 becoming increasingly popular for the distant edge on stuff .

For the Tecnophobes may I recommend a read of a book 'The Sporting Clays Handbook ' by Jerry Meyer published by Lyons Press .

An in depth investigation into chokes and cartridges .

 

[Will Hewland]

Will,

 Interestingly the distant edge on Battue we shot on Sunday was hit and broken convincingly with  1/4, 3/8, Muller U2 , 1/2 and Full choke , so what is the answer?

I believe it to be what ever you are confident with . I used to always shoot fixed choke Miroku Full and Xtra Full 0.040 " & 0.044" Brian Hebditch thought I was grossly overchoked as he never used more than 1/4 & 1/2 , but I was hitting them .

Now with the popularity of FITASC I do see 3/4 becoming increasingly popular for the distant edge on stuff .

For the Tecnophobes may I recommend a read of a book 'The Sporting Clays Handbook ' by Jerry Meyer published by Lyons Press .

An in depth investigation into chokes and cartridges .

Due to lack of ability, I only hit that once, but it broke very well with 1/4 and 8 shot.

 

[Hamster]

1/4 will break many distant and even edge on stuff well but it will also miss it well enough and unfortunately we simply have no way of proving in real time using trick photography and filming whether the clay was missed due to lack of ability/placement or the simple reality of density (or lack of).

Over the years I have had many experiences where poor breaks and even misses could very plausibly be put down to too open a choke for the clay at hand, often this has occured when I've been unaware of the actual choke in place proving to me at least that my subconscious could not be playing tricks on me.

Literally last Thursday having made a few changes and adjustments to my gun I ventured forth and had 80 practice birds on my own to see how the gun felt. While paying for my birds I commented to Scott who is a very accomplished shot that I was missing loads with the 3/4 top barrel for some reason. I then spent the next three days trying to unravel why that could have been the case as I had even resorted to shooting the same bird one after the other and even selected top barrel to see whether mounting issues or psychology was at play but without a shadow of doubt I was getting unexplained misses and poor hits on distant edge on and distant edge on Teal.

On Sunday as I was getting ready to shoot I happened to glance at the chokes and immediately knew the top barrel's choke looked too open to be the usual 1/2 - 3/4 set up, it turned out to be Cylinder (don't ask). 

Needless to say I smashed many Teal and distant aways of different permutations and never once felt underchoked. The problem was density but people will always believe misses are always due to placement. 

 

[shootinguru]

When I went to Perazzi to be fitted and checked for my MX12 prosport  the steel reversible  pattern plate is shot at 30 metres!

The try gun has trap barrels 3/4 & full! When I shot it with my finished gun bored 3/8 & 5/8  the pattern in the bottom barrel 3/8 was only 

2"-3" wider than the 3/4choke of the trap gun barrels certainly not 30"" circle!

 

[Hamster]

When I went to Perazzi to be fitted and checked for my MX12 prosport  the steel reversible  pattern plate is shot at 30 metres!

The try gun has trap barrels 3/4 & full! When I shot it with my finished gun bored 3/8 & 5/8  the pattern in the bottom barrel 3/8 was only 

2"-3" wider than the 3/4choke of the trap gun barrels certainly not 30"" circle!

That only proves one or the other choke was throwing outside its designation, more than likely the 3/8th, present company excepted it never ceases to amaze me that people fail to grasp that choke is a "performance" not a measurement.

If I ordered a 3/8th barrel from a respected company I would want it throw fairly open patterns that are only just tighter than 1/4, anything else means they're getting it wrong. 

 

[Lord v]

I have a M/C choked 1/2 and 1/2.

Come the glorious day where I feel it's the choke that let me down rather than my skill one of those may change.

I have never felt that +/- a 1/4 will have helped any of my misses.

However 

If that day does come, then I can change choke easily and quickly without the hassle of a gunsmith or a new gun....

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I'm so glad I didn't comment on this topic.  I would refer you all again to the investigative activities of Mr. Neil Winston.