To Multi-choke or Not to Multi-choke..That is the question

[Cosmicblue]

Ahh Wonko, thanks that was an interesting, though nett result not especially conclusive,  but at least it consumed a couple of hours, currently stuck in a Houston TX hotel, it's -3c outside and there is snow lying on the ground outside...I'm sure the top chap here said Global warming wasn't an issue....snow is unusual down here.

Mr Winston has written much with considerable eloquence, great detail with photos to match, though I note there isn't a whole lot of consistency in the results.

 

[shootinguru]

Perhaps Hampster could explain to me a mere NUMPTY what am I,supposed to do?   I ordered 3/8 & 5/8 of choke! I have a clock guage from when I was a registered firearms dealer, I measured the bores and the chokes! They are exactly what they should be! 100% accurate!  Perhaps there is something he can recommend?

 

[schmokinn]

Perhaps Hampster could explain to me a mere NUMPTY what am I,supposed to do?   I ordered 3/8 & 5/8 of choke! I have a clock guage from when I was a registered firearms dealer, I measured the bores and the chokes! They are exactly what they should be! 100% accurate!  Perhaps there is something he can recommend?

Large drill...file?  :wink:

 

[Westward]

I'm sure Hammy will reply, but over the pond on shotgunworld the Americans, as they are prone to do, become quite anal about chokes. One such is the highly opinionated scribe Randy Wakeman who repeatedly states that the only way to know what your chokes are doing is to pattern them and count the pellets. According to him the markings and measurements don't mean a great deal. Apparently, if you don't do this you're a total loser.

Personally I stick in a couple of middling chokes and go shooting. I rather suspect that's what most people do. :wink:

 

[schmokinn]

I had my Perazzi that came as 5/8th,7/8th Measured with clock gauge taken out to 1/2,20 thou restriction on an 18.4mm bore patterns great and smokes most things with F3,s if i put it in the right place.

I also had my Miroku measured supposed 3/4 and full,turned out to be 1/2,3/4 which does well with the same cartridge but never quite so impressive?

No i know from experience that some aftermarket manufacturers are a little bit flexible with there measurements for various reasons.

One thought,are all say inv+ barrels the same bore on every model of gun?

 

[shootinguru]

Well I guess we can't all be winners?  :angel:

 

[Hamster]

Perhaps Hampster could explain to me a mere NUMPTY what am I,supposed to do?   I ordered 3/8 & 5/8 of choke! I have a clock guage from when I was a registered firearms dealer, I measured the bores and the chokes! They are exactly what they should be! 100% accurate!  Perhaps there is something he can recommend?

Well shattinguru, you need do nothing, because as we all know you keep saying 3/8th will break anything anywhere at any angle and any discipline, so why change such a winning hand ! 

My reply was meant to inform you and others reading that there OUGHT to be a much more visible difference between 3/8 and 3/4 or indeed even 5/8th, the fact that there isn't simply means you aren't shooting 3/8th regardless of what your ole smiths gauge or Perazzi are telling you. 

What I would do is send the gun back and ask them to fix it.........but then I wouldn't order 3/8th in the first place. 

 

[shootinguru]

I stand by what I have already said 3/8 or 0.15 will kill every sporting and Fitasc target out there!  I am certain if I returned my gun to Perazzi after 12-13 years under complaint they would quite rightly tell me to Bog Off! Or similar Anglo Saxon phrase?

 

[schmokinn]

Well shattinguru, you need do nothing, because as we all know you keep saying 3/8th will break anything anywhere at any angle and any discipline, so why change such a winning hand ! 

My reply was meant to inform you and others reading that there OUGHT to be a much more visible difference between 3/8 and 3/4 or indeed even 5/8th, the fact that there isn't simply means you aren't shooting 3/8th regardless of what your ole smiths gauge or Perazzi are telling you. 

What I would do is send the gun back and ask them to fix it.........but then I wouldn't order 3/8th in the first place. 

So are you saying the clock/dial gauge is wrong?

 

[Hamster]

So are you saying the clock/dial gauge is wrong?

Gauges are a guide they can on occasion mean nothing, it's the "performance" that matters. If guru has a 3/8 choke that throws 3/4 patterns then he has a 3/4 pattern tube...................could be why he thinks 3/8 will break anything.  :baby: :wink:

 

[schmokinn]

Absolute tosh the quantity of choke is a physical measurement of constriction used by every manufacturer ...so you are saying everybody but you is wrong.

i see what you are trying to say but there must be conformity of measurement otherwise they can be no comparison,guess you could try telling every manufacturer that there gun must throw a 30 inch pattern at 30yds to call it half but that would never work because of other factors.

I shall have to have words with Nigel Teague and explain to him he has no idea WTF he is doing and get a refund!  :lol: :lol:

Performance of the given restriction may well be different and how it patterns is subjective and dependant on other factors.

If i had had mine taken to 3/8 instead of half i suspect it would still break almost anything at ESP but then again i probably have the same Bore size as SG He is probably a member of the 18.4 mm club  :wink:

 

[shootinguru]

I never said it threw 3/4patterns? What I said is that my 3/8 bottom barrel had a pattern that was approximately 2"-3"wider each side of the test guns 3/4 choke! It certainly does not have a 30"circle!

 

[Hamster]

Absolute tosh the quantity of choke is a physical measurement of constriction used by every manufacturer ...so you are saying everybody but you is wrong.

i see what you are trying to say but there must be conformity of measurement otherwise they can be no comparison,guess you could try telling every manufacturer that there gun must throw a 30 inch pattern at 30yds to call it half but that would never work because of other factors.

I shall have to have words with Nigel Teague and explain to him he has no idea WTF he is doing and get a refund!  :lol: :lol:

Performance of the given restriction may well be different and how it patterns is subjective and dependant on other factors.

If i had had mine taken to 3/8 instead of half i suspect it would still break almost anything at ESP but then again i probably have the same Bore size as SG He is probably a member of the 18.4 mm club  :wink:

Trust me schmokinn the only one talking tosh is your good self. Choke is and has always been a "performance", yes it's true that since making each and every gun (particularly multi chokes) "perform" to that exact principle is both impractical and impossibly expensive, that manufacturers have had to adopt a set of "measurements" that experience has shown will more often than not conform to the ideal +/- 5% . 

This means that when you buy a common gauge it will more or less give an idea of what the choke is supposed to be but bearing in mind that the constriction at the end of the barrel has to correspond to that inside , then it makes them even more of a lottery unless one buys and uses a more sophisticated version which I presume guru has........even then what it says is immaterial UNLESS it also throws what it says, it has to walk the walk in other words. 

I'm not saying everyone is wrong and I am right, I am saying YOU are wrong, others may well not be interested enough to care, some will read and be frightened to talk lest their lack of knowledge show, BUT the ones who know and understand how choke works will know that unless (for example) a barrel throws 60% inside a 30" circle at 40 yards then it is not half choke. I do agree though the multitude of factors involved means that the subject must not be over analysed, if you're happy with the breaks at the distances you shoot then that's all that matters. 

I suspect that if we were to correctly pattern and measure guru's 3/8 choke that it will be found to be performing tighter than its intended denomination, it certainly sounds it from his 2-3 inches description as well as the fact he thinks it'll break 65 yard edge on Teal. This is not at all unusual by the way, CG are well known for their 1/4 performing beyond reasonable expectation as are some Beretta chokes, tis a common trick within the trade it seems because it makes the inexperienced think they're in possession of something speshol. 

 

[schmokinn]

"This means that when you buy a common gauge it will more or less give an idea of what the choke is supposed to be but bearing in mind that the constriction at the end of the barrel has to correspond to that inside  " hence me mentioning the bore.

The gauge used was one of a set of dial gauges used by my gunsmith and i witnessed the before and after measurements,if you were thinking i may have one of those key ring type gauges that bears no relativity to anything worthwhile the answer would be no.

Measurements are finite,Performance is relative.

 

[Sian]

I think you all give too much thought to these things.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

This is beginning to sound like some dancing angels to me.  It boggles me that anyone thinks that they know what will happen (in absolute terms) when a choke is altered by 1/8 !!   I'd be far more likely to think that a random blasting of different manufacturer carts thru say 3/8 - 1/2 - 5/8 marked tubes would not reveal any REAL and SIGNIFICANT differences.  I could be wrong but I'd go with that until a series generated with the rigorousness of the studies Mr. Winston does comes forward.  As schmokinn says above 

Measurements are finite,Performance is relative.

I could not agree more and neither could I agree more with Hamster even tho I'd bet his +/-5% not only massively optimistic but likely undocumented by any manufacturer - - I'm betting they do just go with the "standard" not for a moment worry about it.

JMO of course but it seems like, as usual, something is being obsessed about with no substantiating data other than anecdotal.

I'd refer you to the manner in which Perazzi designates chokes.  With the screw-ins they are marked in 1/10 increments.  However the stamps on fixed choke barrels are rather less exact and ... see the chart attached ... and IMHO much more realistic

 

[Hamster]

I could not agree more and neither could I agree more with Hamster even tho I'd bet his +/-5% not only massively optimistic but likely undocumented by any manufacturer - - I'm betting they do just go with the "standard" not for a moment worry about it.

Well said, my +/- 5% is indeed itself a mere assumption, the best we can hope for with chokes in real life is open, medium and tight, in absolute terms chokes are supposed to be a "performance" measurable by counting the number of pellets inside a 30" circle shot at from 40 yards away and the percentage thrown will be given a choke designation, i.e, 40% is true Cylinder, half is 60% and Full 70%. The sheer number of variables though (which include the air density and cartridges used) will always mean they remain of minor academic interest. Ages ago I gave away a Beretta 1/2 flush choke to Wyley if I recall because it threw more open patterns than my 1/2 Briley flush which I use all the time, it doesn't matter a damn what either actually threw in absolute terms, what matters is that I want the break signatures of the Briley, it so happens to be called half which is fine by me. 

That doesn't mean though that we can't spot instances of significant and potentially consequential disparities. If for instance a Skeet shooter ordered a 1/4 or 3/8 fixed tube from Perazzi which then routinely threw 5/8th+ patterns, the owner would be rightly aggrieved, same as if someone ordered a tight Trap gun which measured "correctly" on the gauge but then struggled to hold half choke patterns, again the potential for dissatisfaction is there.

Oddly enough this very day my DT10 freshly back at the dealers from Beretta was re-packed and sent to Teagues with instructions to bore them out to 1/2 & 3/4; I'm simply going to have to wait and see how it shoots as I am certain that they will first measure the barrels internals and then proceed to alter the chokes. What I can't do if I am unhappy is to start chastising them (unless they mistakenly bore it out to 1/4 or something silly) IF on paper the chokes won't replicate their designations. 

Their answer quite rightly would be you asked for 1/2 and 3/4 "constriction", if you wanted near guarantee of those "performances" then you should have asked for the barrels to be regulated to a certain shell. 

 

[schmokinn]

It seems the DT10 with fixed barrels nominal bore may well be 18.4mm as well so it would be interesting to see if it throws the same pattern when regulated to half .20 thou by Teague everything else being equal.

Dunno if it has any of that newfangled backboring stuff or forcing cones a foot long  :smile:

 

[Westward]

It seems the DT10 with fixed barrels nominal bore may well be 18.4mm as well so it would be interesting to see if it throws the same pattern when regulated to half .20 thou by Teague everything else being equal.

Dunno if it has any of that newfangled backboring stuff or forcing cones a foot long  :smile:

They know what they're doing at Teague. Bore size will be measured to ensure the correct constriction before machining starts.

 

[chippy]

1/4 will break many distant and even edge on stuff well but it will also miss it well enough and unfortunately we simply have no way of proving in real time using trick photography and filming whether the clay was missed due to lack of ability/placement or the simple reality of density (or lack of).

Over the years I have had many experiences where poor breaks and even misses could very plausibly be put down to too open a choke for the clay at hand, often this has occured when I've been unaware of the actual choke in place proving to me at least that my subconscious could not be playing tricks on me.

Literally last Thursday having made a few changes and adjustments to my gun I ventured forth and had 80 practice birds on my own to see how the gun felt. While paying for my birds I commented to Scott who is a very accomplished shot that I was missing loads with the 3/4 top barrel for some reason. I then spent the next three days trying to unravel why that could have been the case as I had even resorted to shooting the same bird one after the other and even selected top barrel to see whether mounting issues or psychology was at play but without a shadow of doubt I was getting unexplained misses and poor hits on distant edge on and distant edge on Teal.

On Sunday as I was getting ready to shoot I happened to glance at the chokes and immediately knew the top barrel's choke looked too open to be the usual 1/2 - 3/4 set up, it turned out to be Cylinder (don't ask). 

Needless to say I smashed many Teal and distant aways of different permutations and never once felt underchoked. The problem was density but people will always believe misses are always due to placement. 

But the question is " how did the cylinder choke get in there"   looks like a bit of covert open choke practice going on!  I must be putting doubts in your mind.?