Unbelievable

[wynno]

It's now sorted Wynno is going to use VAR.

Stop being a sarcastic Pratt.

FOR your information I was not the referee, but I stood up in support of the referee, WOULD YOU.

I don’t like cheats and bully’s in any way, shape or form and I would do it all again in a heartbeat

 

[Salopian]

After the above remark from Wynno ,

I have now left this forum .

Maybe that is what is wrong with our sport . People without a sense of humour .

 

[wynno]

After the above remark from Wynno ,

I have now left this forum .

Maybe that is what is wrong with our sport . People without a sense of humour .

Bye bye

 

[Salopian]

Open Letter from George DigweedDear SirWithout prejudice and compromiseMy first International event was in 1987 at the EEC Championships at Nevremont in Belgium. I attended as a raw 23 year old and was introduced to what I now consider to be "The Formula One" of Clay Pigeon Shooting.It was a sport competed in and represented by "gentlemen", and coming from a background of other sport, which had always been played in a fair and decent way, I was proud and honoured to be associated with it. Twenty years on, a lot of water has passed under the bridge and "our sport" is no longer what it was. Years ago you could walk up to someone that had won an event and congratulate them, knowing they had won it fair and square. This is, unfortunately, not the case these days.The sport has turned, in my view, onto the verge of meltdown. Decisions are questioned, club house talk is no longer of "who has shot what", but is now of "who has claimed this or that". This to me is not what we do it for, or sport.In my view the few people that undermine the rules, and it is just a few both domestically and internationally, stand to ruin the Sport of Gentlemen for us all.Unless we, as a sport, begin to look at ourselves, and police the sport ourselves, it will not be there for our future generations to enjoy as we have done. The route of the problem I believe stems from lack of respect and aggression towards the referees.For a chosen few, claiming targets to be hit that were lost, targets that are missed to be argued as "no targets", and general bullying of referees condemns the sport to be that of soccer, where every decision is questioned and referees abused as a matter of course.Who would be a referee? They do it for the love of the sport, get paid minimal amounts, and the end result for them is abuse and bullying from a few shooters,which in turn leads to a defensive strategy for all the remaining shooters. Decisions are then made by the referees, which are not necessarily correct or fair, and who can blame them?I appreciate that the problem is not just for international events, and that the problem rears it's ugly head, both at County, Regional and Domestic levels. Wherever I travel to compete in the World, the story is the same. What has finally bought it home to me was in an event earlier this year in America. I was on a squad, where for the first time you could actually say there was a lot of money at stake in the event. The shooter (Rick Mein) called for a target, and his gun then malfunctioned. After checking with the referee, he shot the target again, and killed it. On walking to the next peg, and checking his gun, he realised it was a safety catch issue, and not a malfunction as previously thought. He was very much in the hunt to win the event. On realising what had happenend, he walked straight back to the referee and asked for the target to be deducted from his score card. THIS USED TO HAPPEN. It is called HONESTY. I am sure 99% of all the people that shoot would do the same. Sadly, there are a few that do not play by the rules, and this is the problem in our sport that we need to eradicate.I firmly believe that if we are to crack down on the dishonest members of out community, then we must come up with a new rule to hopefully eradicate this problem. When shooting UIT disciplines, there is no aggressive responses from the shooters towards the referee. I believe, if we are going to get fairness back into our sport, we have to give protection to the referees. I would therefore propose the following:-In International events the procedure for a dispute should be silent, with the shooter raising their hand to claim a dispute. The squad then stops, and the referee can conduct a civilised enquiry as to the problem. If necessary, he can then consult the rest of the squad. Shouting or aggresive behaviour would result in the target being called "lost" immediately. If the shouting and aggressive behaviour continues by the shooter, further targets would be lost as a result of their actions, after warnings by the referee. This behaviour would then be reported to the jury. Mandatory. Where upon the shooter would receive an official warning. If they re-offend, the same would apply, but this time they would get a final warning, and a third offence would lead to a two year disqualification.If we are going to continue to grow as a sport, and become as professional as the other sports that surround us, we must act.I have written this from my position as European FITASC Champion, and not from a position that would involve sour grapes. It is also from the heart. The sport has given me many, many pleasurable moments, as it will do to countless others in the future, provided we clean up our act and go forward together.Yours faithfullyGeorge Digweed

 

[Will Hewland]

You’re back Peter! I take it GD wrote this a long time ago, because he’s not 43.

 

[El Spavo]

Yup, sounds like rugby instead of football: respect for the ref! Good that he put a function where you can contest summat though... mate at Bisley last week quite obviously had a kill which was given as a loss; he raised eyebrows and walked away despite everyone else behind us waiting seeing the ref was clearly incorrect judging by their comments/looks (and fair play to him, think I may have struggled myself), but screaming and shouting is not called for.

 

[AJB Temple]

As a novice, I've watched this debate with interest and a degree of amazement. There does not seem to be much money in this sport, and it's evidently reliant on a lot of goodwill from referees.  No one is infallible and if I was a referee and a competitor was abusive to me they would get short shrift. 

 

[Lloyd]

As a novice, I've watched this debate with interest and a degree of amazement. There does not seem to be much money in this sport. . .

Yes, I too as a novice have read with fascination

To quote @Hamster "The only way to win money at this sport is to give it up altogether"

I might assume (hope) a bigger event with Range Rover type money would have more robust adjudication?

Seems a bit like gambling. The casinos/bookmakers are the only ones making any money. I have only "gambled" a handful of times in my life. 

I recally my mother telling me as a boy when we went to the fair at the seaside. "This is your spending money. Play to enjoy, not to win". That stuck with me throughout my life and on the occasional trip to a casino with friends and colleagues, I have spent to entertain myself and perhaps on one or two occasions the evening turned out cheap. 

Anyone who'll cheat for £150 is just that. . . cheap, and a liar!

If you need the £150 win, then wisdom would say you and your family are no ready for this sport. Perhaps any sport.

In the words of Ron Swanson "I hate lies. There's only one thing I hate more than lies and that's skimmed milk. Which is water, lying about being milk".

In games I have played with my children, I play to win. If they cry, so be it. If I lose, I might be crying inside, but to cheat, I'd be cheating myself more than they. 

They are dealt honesty and integrity and I expect it from them in return. Give me an honest game and I'll take an honest defeat or an honest win. Without honesty, the game is worthless and so are the players.

If I lose to a cheat, I smile, knowing the truth, knowing that I am the better man. Both in skill, intellect and integrity. I'll take any number of losses to a cheat with a smile. I cry only when beaten fair and square.

Cheating, lying and bullying are acts of narcissism. One thing I have learned in my few years of life is never give a narcissist the time of day. It's not about winning or losing to them. It's simply about not engaging with them at all.

So for the cheaters and liars (an bullies) a little poem I recall from my youth. (las I cannot attribute the author so he/she shall remain anonymous due to my failing memory).

"

When you get what you want in your struggle for gain and the world makes you King for a day,

just go to the mirror, take a good look at yourself, see what that man has to say.

It isn't your mother or father or wife (or fellow sportsman) whose judgement upon you must pass,

the one who's verdict counts the most in your life is from the one staring back from the glass.

You may be one who got a good break and think you're a wonderful guy,

but the man in the glass will say you're a fake, if you can't look him straight in the eye.

you may fool the whole world down the pathway of years and get pats on the back as you pass,

but your final reward will be heartache and tear if you cheat the man in the glass.

                                                         "

 

[Charliedog]

Does not really sound like the most blatant cheating, not that i have witnessed any but the referees should not feel threatened

 

[wynno]

Does not really sound like the most blatant cheating, not that i have witnessed any but the referees should not feel threatened

Oh it was Charlie.

 

[Xaphan]

cheating is cheating and should not be acceptable in any form or in any sport......not only is it unfair to the people competing its also attempting to fool yourself into thinking you're better at something than you actually are and if you feel the need to cheat then that sport clearly isn't for you....take up knitting or something instead.

abusing or intimidating anyone in any setting, sport or not is totally unacceptable.

your parents should have taught you from a very young age the difference between right and wrong and if you can't play nicely then don't play at all 

 

[Wonko the Sane]

After the above remark from Wynno ,

I have now left this forum .

Maybe that is what is wrong with our sport . People without a sense of humour .

It's been my experience that shooters have lacked a sense of humor for some considerable time.  Seems to be consistent with a general deficit in mental abilities.

As has been discussed here in the past there are persons who are likely pathological liars and cheaters in everything they do.  Tho perhaps not many in number they do seem to be noticed.  Few persons are more below the radar than those who are simply gentlemen and play by the rules.

JMO of course

and if you feel the need to cheat then that sport clearly isn't for you....take up knitting or something instead.

so is cheating at knitting more acceptable or just easier to accomplish?

 

[Xaphan]

so is cheating at knitting more acceptable or just easier to accomplish?

I'm not sure its going to be easier.......but its certainly not going to be acceptable for the grandchild you're knitting the Christmas jumper for if the arm falls off because you missed a few stitches and the disappointed look on that child's face on Christmas day might make you see the error of your ways  

 

[Lloyd]

I'm not sure its going to be easier.......but its certainly not going to be acceptable for the grandchild you're knitting the Christmas jumper for if the arm falls off because you missed a few stitches and the disappointed look on that child's face on Christmas day might make you see the error of your ways  

To quote @Wonko the Sane "It's been my experience. . ." that such people as this do not believe they ever err in their ways and the problem is entirely the misconception of others.

It also often goes that such people will claim themselves to be a "gentleman" (or lady); while any gentleman I have ever known would do no such thing.

These "gentlemen" assume the so called title in order to fulfill a need to project to others a spurious sense of decency. Often in my observations to charm some other person they wish to take advantage of. Their true colours of course revealed by how they treat others from whom they have less to profit by.

A true gentleman is kind and courteous to all, of any standing. He does this simply because it is correct, not for glory or profit or advantage and he would make mention of his deeds or claim to be better than any other for it. A sort of "fly below the radar" chap, if you will.

 

[Xaphan]

To quote @Wonko the Sane "It's been my experience. . ." that such people as this do not believe they ever err in their ways and the problem is entirely the misconception of others.

It also often goes that such people will claim themselves to be a "gentleman" (or lady); while any gentleman I have ever known would do no such thing.

These "gentlemen" assume the so called title in order to fulfill a need to project to others a spurious sense of decency. Often in my observations to charm some other person they wish to take advantage of. Their true colours of course revealed by how they treat others from whom they have less to profit by.

A true gentleman is kind and courteous to all, of any standing. He does this simply because it is correct, not for glory or profit or advantage and he would make mention of his deeds or claim to be better than any other for it. A sort of "fly below the radar" chap, if you will.

you have a point...... a gentleman/lady cannot self proclaim that is for his/her peers to decide and most of those people are the unsung heroes of society 

 

[Wonko the Sane]

False modesty would ill become a gentleman as well.  In that light I have no reservations in regard to admitting that I have become a perfectly lovely person and have been and will continue to be a gentleman in everything I say or do.  I've observed that persons with opinions to the contrary are uniformly mistaken and I, as a perfectly lovely person and gentleman, always attempt to correct their misconceptions.  It's simply the proper thing to do, donchuno?

 

[philmoss]

After reading this thread.......once again its all about being bold in the face of confrontation !!

Many who have shot my evenys know only too well that i run a tight ship & not one of my refs are there to engage in any form of conflict, they call me & i will deal with it.shame that many shoot operators dont support the refs for the good of the sport & its many honest competitors.

I have a 100 esp reg on sept 22 at Nuthampstead & am pleased to confirm that all 13 refs INC a releif are all qualified cpsa esp refs........just saying  

 

[Geordieboy]

Here's my 50 pence worth.........

I have been in this situation several times before, where a target came out at a different angle.  If I shoot at it and miss it, I always go for the 2nd target and accept the first target as a loss.  However if the target was sufficiently 'out' .......I always ask the ref if it was a no-bird.  50% of the time, they acknowledge it as a loss and 50% of the time they say pair again.

But the key here is........I always give the ref the benefit of the doubt.  We've all been there.  But its stressful enough for the refs (especially the young ones), when a big fella comes up and starts pressing.  If I get a loss on one dodgy target......well I just say to myself "99 will have to do then".

Frustrating, but give the refs the benefit of the doubt.  They sit in blazing sun, sleet and rain and snow, to score for us.  

 

[Hamster]

On Sunday I had a moment at Horne with a Teal/overhead away midi simmo where the first 3 pairs came out fine but then I had a slower wonky Teal which nonetheless stayed in the general area of the sky, it was most definitely a no bird and easier than the intended presentation (if you knew it was coming that way). The ref was an experienced young man I've known for years but even he didn't have the time or reactions to call no bird so what do I do ? In that nano second you have to make a decision and fire (as I did) by which time the away bird had now travelled twice as far as you'd let it under normal circumstances, still hearing nothing from the ref I fired and managed to kill it but had I missed I'd have fully expected onlookers and the ref to sympathise and allow pair again despite me having fired at them. As I've said before it's a tough call at times. 

 

[wynno]

Totally agree with you Hamid, but if you had missed it , would you have bullied the ref into giving it to you again ?

I don’t, for one second think you would have,  that is the difference. It’s the bullying and refusal to accept the scores decision that gets me. We are all human and we all make mistakes. In fitasc, if a shooter has a query when in the hoop, he raises his/her hand and asks the ref , not shout at them.