Your Decision Please

[Salopian]

Being as my Referees thread has caused so much discussion , here is another teaser for you !

You are refereeing and you have to make a decision on the following .

Report Pair , Shooter calls 'Pull' , target flies  but he cannot shoot due to leaving the safety catch on.

What is your decision? Qualify your decision please.

Simultaneous Pair , same occurrance what is your decision now ? Why ?

Enjoy 

 

[tiptop]

Target lost.

Pair lost.

Misfire advice rule 3.32

In all cases the Referee will check the safety catch to ensure that it has not been applied accidentally, if it has, then the target will be declared lost.

 

[schmokinn]

Pair lost no report for second target to be released his fault for leaving safety on.

Pair lost his fault for leaving safety on.

Do i need to read the rules? 

 

[wynno]

1) target lost, shooter is at fault for leaving safety on

2) pair lost, same as above

However.....  if the shooter is a relatively newbie and or inexperienced then discretion applies.

For an experienced shooter no discretion applies.

 

[Davy_B]

1) target lost, shooter is at fault for leaving safety on

2) pair lost, same as above

However.....  if the shooter is a relatively newbie and or inexperienced then discretion applies.

For an experienced shooter no discretion applies.

exactly this ^^^^^

but it depends on the level of the shoot going on . 

 

[wylye]

Pair lost.

Pair lost.

But if its someone you know then let him have the pair again  -  as long as theres no-one about.

 

[Paul120]

Pair lost in both case. Unless the ref is under 18 or seem to be a pushover. In which  some people will persuade by shouting loudly that they are entitled  as they are  special and  have them again. 

 

[Salopian]

Report pair , second target can not be thrown because there was no bang (report) so how can you lose it if it hasn't been thrown? 

 

[Jonny English]

Report pair , second target can not be thrown because there was no bang (report) so how can you lose it if it hasn't been thrown? 

Is there any rule that says that you can't take off the safety catch and fire the gun once the first target has gone in order to at least get the report bird released? Does the bird need to be in view or indeed flight to qualify for release of the report bird?

 

[Hamster]

Is there any rule that says that you can't take off the safety catch and fire the gun once the first target has gone in order to at least get the report bird released? Does the bird need to be in view or indeed flight to qualify for release of the report bird?

It doesn't for a "following" pair but for a report pair the second bird cannot be sent until the shooter has fired at the first. 

This is what makes a following pair potentially very tricky to shoot as the second may well be out of your sweet zone. 

 

[Sian]

It would be worth talking about if the rule was actually enforced regularly.  I think I have only seen a handful of times where this rule has actually been actioned.

 

[schmokinn]

It would be worth talking about if the rule was actually enforced regularly.  I think I have only seen a handful of times where this rule has actually been actioned.

I had it enforced on me couple of months ago...decided to use a gunslip as i went round for once and the safety got knocked on.....she was a bloody misery though!

Last week i saw somebody else get caught.

Both times i believe trap shooters reffing as i had never seen them before and had shooting vests on,rules is rules but misery is optional  :angel:

 

[paul b]

Right peter as you well know there is a jury ,make your decision and if the shooter doesnt agree, make a note on the back of the card for the jury to read,tell the shooter to go to the jury and you will be more than happy to go along with there decision. 

 

[tiptop]

Report pair , second target can not be thrown because there was no bang (report) so how can you lose it if it hasn't been thrown? 

That would be my take on it.

Pair again first target lost, second to count....and simo pair would be lost, as both targets have been thrown and lost.

 

[Jeremy Baker]

It would be worth talking about if the rule was actually enforced regularly.  I think I have only seen a handful of times where this rule has actually been actioned.

Always enforced at FITASC competitions. 

I lost targets because the safety used to flip on the Parcours. 

Disabled it now. 

 

[Salopian]

An interesting reply from Paul Bailey .

The Referees decision is final , you can go to the Jury and spend a few more £pounds (£20) but the referees decision should not be changed.

Which further highlights the very important and responsible job that Referees do .

At the end of the day it really is a thankless task , and although there are written rules sometimes in the interests of 'fair play' we may have to relax .

But please when shooting , I know every target is important , but spare a thought for the poor individual who possibly cold and soaking wet has to make an instant decision.

 

[shortlegs]

My understanding would be 

Report pair  pair again first target established lost second to count as you can't throw second target as no shot taken for report 

Sim pair     pair lost as targets thrown but not shot at due to shooter error 

 

[Hamster]

Can you claim distraction due to safety being on ? 

 

[leighH]

Jeremy

I seem to recall you loosing a target with me once when your safety was ‘in neutral’ at Churchills?

FITASC sporting is clear cut

6.4 The target is called “zero”:

If the shooter fails to fire at the target without any valid reason (rafale or simultaneous double zero & zero).

If the shooter fires but the target is not hit and no piece visibly comes off or only particles of dust are visible (smoking targets or target dust).

If the shooter, in the case of a gun malfunction, opens the gun him/herself or touches the safety catch before the referee has checked the gun.

If there is a second malfunction of the gun or ammunition during the same round.

So for a report double the first target is called lost, the pair is repeated to establish the result of the 2nd target, simo/rafale both are scored zero.

The ruling for English sporting has always been the same, but I cannot find anywhere in the current CPSA Booklet No1 rule book where it expressly addresses the issue of simo or following pairs although safety catches are mentioned. Whilst I have old sets of FITASC rules going back to early 90s, I have not kept any English sporting rule books.

Something the CPSA needs to address, no wonder there is confusion over a straightforward ruling, even between experienced shooters.

English Sporting Rules

TARGET DEFINITION “LOST”

3.13 The competitor after an apparent malfunction or misfire opens the gun or moves the safety catch.

3.15 The competitor fails to fire for any reason due to personal error, fault or negligence.

MISFIRE ADVICE

3.32 Actions in the event of a misfire: NB Referees SHOULD NOT take the gun from the shooter.

The referee will ask the shooter what has happened. Response: “I pulled the trigger and it did not fire”.

The Referee will instruct the shooter not to open the gun. If competitor opens the gun without instruction from the referee the target will be declared lost.

In all cases the Referee will check the safety catch to ensure that it has not been applied accidentally, if it has, then the target will be declared lost.

Regards

Leigh