Do snap caps actually prevent damage?

[El Spavo]

For a while I've been a little unsure if I had a problem with one or both of my firing pins as I've had misfires both top & bottom (a couple of which have had very light pinstrikes on the cartridges), which made me wonder whether it's worth investing in some J&P pin kits, but the fact that it's a reltively low used 2015 525 made me question they'd fail that soon... despite the ribbing from the MANY Berretta boys I shoot with!  So yesterday there was a REALLY long, high looper where it didn't fire but I had enough time and the nous to take my finger completely off the trigger and pull again before the bird disappeared... low and behold, it fired fine.

So, given that it seems more likely that I'm just not releasing the trigger which is giving me the issue and that I may have to work this off, I happened to flick past snap caps on the Napier page whilst browsing for other stuff and wondered if you can damage specifically a shotgun by dry firing,... i genuinely would be guessing if I made a comment on it? Thoughts?

 

[Will Hewland]

For a while I've been a little unsure if I had a problem with one or both of my firing pins as I've had misfires both top & bottom (a couple of which have had very light pinstrikes on the cartridges), which made me wonder whether it's worth investing in some J&P pin kits, but the fact that it's a reltively low used 2015 525 made me question they'd fail that soon... despite the ribbing from the MANY Berretta boys I shoot with!  So yesterday there was a REALLY long, high looper where it didn't fire but I had enough time and the nous to take my finger completely off the trigger and pull again before the bird disappeared... low and behold, it fired fine.

So, given that it seems more likely that I'm just not releasing the trigger which is giving me the issue and that I may have to work this off, I happened to flick past snap caps on the Napier page whilst browsing for other stuff and wondered if you can damage specifically a shotgun by dry firing,... i genuinely would be guessing if I made a comment on it? Thoughts?

Snap caps, or any dry firing is a waste of time mostly. You won’t train your trigger habits except on targets as that’s where the causal tension /distraction comes from. 

 

[El Spavo]

Fair one, didn't totally think they'd help but no harm in asking.   They're just used for testing faults and stuff then?

Question still remains though... if you dry fire without them, accidentally or whatever, can you potentially damage anything? (probably not on a single occasion, but you get my drift)

 

[rocky]

Fair one, didn't totally think they'd help but no harm in asking.   They're just used for testing faults and stuff then?

Question still remains though... if you dry fire without them, accidentally or whatever, can you potentially damage anything? (probably not on a single occasion, but you get my drift)

I want to know this too, purely because it seems odd to engineer a mechanism so that it can damage itself that easily. 

 

[Salopian]

Snap caps were initially used to ease the spring pressure on 'V' type hammer springs (usually found in circa 19th century guns ) to save the springs from taking a 'set' through being kept stored under tension. As we moved to coil springs it became less of an issue , except , remember if you dry fire a a hammer onto its chain of components you are subjecting the parts to shock loads without constraint . This may result in damaged / broken firing pins .It is worthwhile remembering that whilst you are relieving the hammer spring tension you are compressing the ejector springs, so you will be tensioning one set of springs .

I think the easiest answer to this conundrum is to ask " Do you jack your car up off its road springs every time you park your car up?"

 

[Martinj]

Not releasing the trigger between shots is a common problem that I would guess most people using modern, single trigger guns have experienced and overcome, it becomes such a natural part of the process that you forget you are doing it.

I agree with Salopian that snap caps were designed to release the pressure on hammer springs to prevent them taking a set and becoming weaker, it makes sense when storing the gun in a cabinet for months on end - say at the end of the shooting season. Whether it's necessary with modern guns I couldn't say. I don't usually use them (but I have got a Beretta :ahappy: .) As for ejector springs? mine are permanently compressed as long as the gun is closed and I do need new ones as it happens, they are only a couple of quid each when in stock (which they are not!)

 

[MartynB]

If you have a good look at the noses of your firing pins you’ll see some pitting . Couple this with a hard primer or two and it’s easy to get a poor strike . Another factor with the Browning Miroku guns is that the firing pin is driven into the primer at an angle . Having said that a pitted pin can fire tens of thousands of rounds no problem . What I have found though is that the firing pins slide in quite a close tolerance bore , which can easily get “ gunged up “ .  The top pin relies on the new cartridge to push it back when you close the gun . The bottom one had a return spring as it would hit the barrels if it didn’t . 

You could remove the pins , blast the holes in the action with degreaser, poke them out etc . Before you put the pins back , pop them in a drill chuck ( lightly ) and polish them with very fine wet and dry , lubricated with oil, you can soon get a very slick surface . Reassemble with a very light lubrication .   Store your gun barrels down to prevent any oil from the barrels working towards these bores .  It’s a doddle of a job the only thing you need is a fine parallel punch to remove the cross pins that keep the firing pins in place . 

Ps even the JP pins will stick and pit , but the mainsprings are monsters compared to the piano wire jobs they replace . 

Regards Mart ( currently eating a Greggs breakfast deal somewhere near Cirencester ) 

Ps , those clear plastic snap caps are the work of the devil . Used a few time and the ejectors play havoc with the rim on them 

 

[Guest]

completely agree with all above, as MartynB and others said the pin hole gets gunged up...I recently stripped down my very secondhand mk3800, how the bottom pin worked every time I dont know, hole was black with congealed residue and the so called return spring was rusted onto the firing pin,had to prise it off, a thorough clean and polish,found a similar spring and has again been returned to service.

 

[Westward]

They are supposed to reduce mechanical shock to the firing system, especially the pins. I doubt anyone can show solid evidence either that they do or don't protect the pins but if you really insist on dry firing then it's probably better practice to use snappies.

As for Mirokus and their well known firing pin issues remember that this is a design that's little changed since it was knocked together with a hacksaw and file in John Browning's shed almost 100 years ago. No one back then was expected to run 10s of 1000s of rounds through the things, so to keep them fighting fit they need more TLC than more modern designs.

 

[rocky]

How does dry firing damage a shotgun? Surely the whole gun is designed to withstand internal shocks, stresses, sudden pressures etc.

 

[Westward]

How does dry firing damage a shotgun? Surely the whole gun is designed to withstand internal shocks, stresses, sudden pressures etc.

Take a hammer and hit a brick wall very hard then repeat with something like an old carpet draped over the wall and see which is easier on your joints. Similar with a gun; the firing pin strikes the primer and indents it a little, thus relieving stresses on the pin.

 

[rocky]

Take a hammer and hit a brick wall very hard then repeat with something like an old carpet draped over the wall and see which is easier on your joints. Similar with a gun; the firing pin strikes the primer and indents it a little, thus relieving stresses on the pin.

Yes I get that but isn’t the important part of the pin in free air if there’s no cartridge? 

 

[Westward]

The pin has shoulders to prevent it from traveling too far forward. The pin is subjected to a greater shock if there's no primer or snappie to buffer it. It's the same engineering principle as crumple zones on cars.

 

[rocky]

The pin has shoulders to prevent it from traveling too far forward. The pin is subjected to a greater shock if there's no primer or snappie to buffer it. It's the same engineering principle as crumple zones on cars.

Thanks for the reply, I’m fairly au fait with the laws of physics I’m just trying to establish how something as developed, as basic in operation, and as globally manufactured as a shotgun would be allowed to be so easily damaged by anyone who picks it up, it seems strange. Add to that I’ve been in quite a few gun shops recently handling tens of very expensive guns none of which had snap caps in or notices on them and the only warning comment I’ve ever had in a shop is to be careful not to ding the barrels on anything when I’m swinging it about, not that I did dry fire any but still.. 

Anyway, so the shoulders of the (presumably hardened) firing pin impact on a tool-steel surface put there for that purpose and the whole firing mechanism gets subjected to more grief than it normally would with a cartridge in it, and people worry about causing more wear to the associated components in the firing mechanism. Is that the nub of it?

 

[Westward]

Thanks for the reply, I’m fairly au fait with the laws of physics I’m just trying to establish how something as developed, as basic in operation, and as globally manufactured as a shotgun would be allowed to be so easily damaged by anyone who picks it up, it seems strange. Add to that I’ve been in quite a few gun shops recently handling tens of very expensive guns none of which had snap caps in or notices on them and the only warning comment I’ve ever had in a shop is to be careful not to ding the barrels on anything when I’m swinging it about, not that I did dry fire any but still.. 

Anyway, so the shoulders of the (presumably hardened) firing pin impact on a tool-steel surface put there for that purpose and the whole firing mechanism gets subjected to more grief than it normally would with a cartridge in it, and people worry about causing more wear to the associated components in the firing mechanism. Is that the nub of it?

There's a general awareness that it's very bad form to dry fire someone else's gun without permission so presumably shops don't feel it necessary to put up notices. No one can quantify the effects on a pin of dry firing but it's widely recognized as bad practice and in my dad's day a soldier would be on a charge for pulling the trigger on his rifle if the chamber was empty.

I've been told that it doesn't harm Beretta or CG pins but I still don't do it.

 

[rocky]

There's a general awareness that it's very bad form to dry fire someone else's gun without permission so presumably shops don't feel it necessary to put up notices. No one can quantify the effects on a pin of dry firing but it's widely recognized as bad practice and in my dad's day a soldier would be on a charge for pulling the trigger on his rifle if the chamber was empty.

I've been told that it doesn't harm Beretta or CG pins but I still don't do it.

Fair enough fella and thanks for indulging me, I think this is going to turn out to be more of a myth than anything (in the context of modern shotguns) and I’ve certainly not heard anything YET that would put me off dry firing my gun. 

 

[Wonko the Sane]

If anyone dry fires a gun w/out snapcaps then they fully deserve any damage that the gun will surely experience.  If someone can't figure out why that is they should find a new hobby.  Snapcaps def cushion the firing pins.

I was told by a factory trained gunmaker that letting the hammers down on anything is a good thing.  Daniele Perazzi let the hammers down on his guns.  That's good enough for me.

 

[chippy]

I think the easiest answer to this conundrum is to ask " Do you jack your car up off its road springs every time you park your car up?"

no but i always remove the camshafts 

 

[Hamster]

If anyone dry fires a gun w/out snapcaps then they fully deserve any damage that the gun will surely experience.  If someone can't figure out why that is they should find a new hobby.  Snapcaps def cushion the firing pins.

I was told by a factory trained gunmaker that letting the hammers down on anything is a good thing.  Daniele Perazzi let the hammers down on his guns.  That's good enough for me.

Why ? What does Danielle know that millions of other gun users out there don't ? 

I was told lots of things when I first got into shooting (a lot of it written down as hard fact in books), turns out a lot of it was just untested assumptions. 

no but i always remove the camshafts 

I always meticulously scrub clean the road springs but find jacking them up is a bit excessive. 

I don't have a beef with this subject either way as I don't find cleaning or generally fussing after guns pins entertaining    but I reckon what would be interesting is setting up a jig to fire a Beretta and standard Miroku continuously, the former empty the latter with shells to see which ones pins fail first.