1 shot 2 birds - what happehns?

[P1Fanatic]

Have only just started ESK recently and a couple of times we have had people in my group hitting both clays in the pair with the same shot. 1 person said just take the pair again and another said the same but first shot established i.e no matter if you miss the 1st bird you still get it which sounds the more logical answer to me.

Can someone clarify for me please?

Cheers

Simon

 

[Will Hewland]

I'm not a skeet expert, but I'm sure it is not scored. Did I also hear if that you do it repeatedly it IS scored, as a loss?

 

[Skeetfreak]

The correct rule should be:-

5.41 REPEAT DOUBLES:
A repeat double will be thrown to establish the results of both targets if:
 
5.46 Both targets are broken with the first shot. On the third repeated occurrence, the first target will be scored “hit” and the second target “lost”.
 
So in simple English it will be "Pair again - nothing established" then if they do it three times in a row it would become "Hit & Lost"
 
Unsure if the three times applies to three times in a round or three time per stand? 
 
 
CPSA rules for English skeet can be found here:- https://www.cpsa.co.uk/userfiles/file/CPSA_Booklet_7.pdf
 
NSSA rules for American skeet can be found here:- http://www.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2013-NSSA-Rule-Book.pdf 

 

[Skeet UK]

Have only just started ESK recently and a couple of times we have had people in my group hitting both clays in the pair with the same shot. 1 person said just take the pair again and another said the same but first shot established i.e no matter if you miss the 1st bird you still get it which sounds the more logical answer to me.

Can someone clarify for me please?

Cheers

Simon

Hi Simon.

It tends to happen if you track the bird too long and try and take it over the peg and scores no targets and will eventually cost targets as Skeetfreak pointed out.

It isn't "good", it shows lack of skill/experience.  Obviously this is fine, if you haven't shot lots of Skeet

People will tell you to shoot birds over the peg for the singles, but you can't do it for the doubles.  You shouldn't really do it at all in that case!

Shoot the first bird well before the peg (shoot it 2/3rds the way from the trap to the peg), then slow down, get the gun turned for the low bird, collect it as it comes over the peg, then shoot it in pretty much the same place you shot the first bird.

Always shoot the singles where you will shoot the doubles.  Even on 3 and 5.  That way there are only about 14 kill points to remember (sight pictures) rather than 25.

If you require further explanation, feel free to ask.  Skeetfreak also knows what I am on about.

I would think the "third repeated occurrence" would be consecutive ones on the same stand.  As if you did it twice on 4 then once on 6, you would have had four singles in between!

 

[Skeetfreak]

Simon,

The method that Skeet UK describes above is the way i shoot doubles also and the way i was taught it makes breaking two together IMPOSSIBLE if i do it right.

Take a look at these two video clips from two of the best skeet shooters in the world. Both currently have averages of over 98% for last season in doubles.

Paul Giambrone III

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6sn5PpHkTU&list=UUJd6J33nOrtdYafhIQ-g5fQ&index=1

Todd Bender

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOq7EaynXes

 

[Guerini Guy]

Providing the referee is happy that the first target is actually hit by the shot (as opposed to say just colliding into each other for example) even though the shot may also have hit the second target, then it is scored as : -

PAIR AGAIN   -   FIRST BIRD ONLY ESTABLISHED

If the referee believes that the second target was hit first and bits of clay then broke the first, then it is : -

PAIR AGAIN   -   FIRST TARGET LOST

 

[Skeet UK]

Providing the referee is happy that the first target is actually hit by the shot (as opposed to say just colliding into each other for example) even though the shot may also have hit the second target, then it is scored as : -

PAIR AGAIN   -   FIRST BIRD ONLY ESTABLISHED

If the referee believes that the second target was hit first and bits of clay then broke the first, then it is : -

PAIR AGAIN   -   FIRST TARGET LOST

We are talking about Skeet not sporting.  If both birds break on a double, assuming it was not a no-bird, then it is nothing established, pair again. 

 

[Will Hewland]

If its sporting, any double break counts as killed. Even if it is clearly shatter from first clay that breaks the second target. Different to ESK.

 

[Guerini Guy]

I was talking about Skeet too mate, and I think I'm right !!!

Providing the ref is happy that the first target was broken due to your shot, then it is  PAIR AGAIN  -  FIRST BIRD DEAD

 . . . . . . . in my opinion  rankster:

If both targets are broken with only one shot being fired in Sporting, then it is PAIR DEAD  :biggrin:

 

[Skeet UK]

I was talking about Skeet too mate, and I think I'm right !!!

Well the rules have been posted up there too..so...

I know you shoot Skeet, Malcolm...can't really understand how you can come up with what you said though.

How is the Ref supposed to establish which target was hit first and with what?  With a pair on 4 or 6 or anywhere, if the gun goes bang and both targets break...how?

If one target was clearly shot and the other was damaged, the shooter would probably shoot the bit that continued its flight...but that isn't really the example given.  We are talking about shooting both targets of a double, with one shot.  Pair again, nothing established.

How can the ref call a lost target if the shooter has only fired one shot and there are no further targets to shoot at?  How has this given the shooter the chance to shoot at at regular targets?

EDIT:  Oh..I see your edit now...I wish stuff counted in my opinion too sometimes!

 

[Guerini Guy]

No need to be sarcastic mate. I have shot literally tens of thousands of rounds at competitive skeet in recent years, and only very recently turned my attention more towards Sporting and FITASC.

Irrespective of what you believe, over the years I have seen this happen regularly in competitions all over the UK, including the English, Scottish and British Open Championships (and Kingsferry by the way).

But IF you are right, then there are one hell of a lot of qualified refs getting it wrong  :fie:

 

[Jan Powell]

There's a simple answer to the original question...

1. Log on to www.cpsa.co.uk

2. Read the 'technical rules for English Skeet' section.

3. Do as above for NSSA if that's what you shoot.

Easy really!

 

[Skeet UK]

The correct rule should be:-

5.41 REPEAT DOUBLES:
A repeat double will be thrown to establish the results of both targets if:
 
5.46 Both targets are broken with the first shot. On the third repeated occurrence, the first target will be scored “hit” and the second target “lost”.
 
So in simple English it will be "Pair again - nothing established" then if they do it three times in a row it would become "Hit & Lost"
 
Unsure if the three times applies to three times in a round or three time per stand? 
 
 
CPSA rules for English skeet can be found here:- https://www.cpsa.co.uk/userfiles/file/CPSA_Booklet_7.pdf
 
NSSA rules for American skeet can be found here:- http://www.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2013-NSSA-Rule-Book.pdf 

No need to argue about it, it has already been posted.

 

[Guerini Guy]

I'm not arguing, I just have a different opinion.

Personally I think you are misreading it, but nevertheless all I am really trying to say is that, from experience, and not just from one particular ground or referee, I have witnessed the situation that I described on literally hundreds of occasions all over the country.

But I'm a laid back kind of guy, so I am more than happy for you to believe you're right and dozens of refs all over the UK to be wrong.

Either way, whenever I have personally been given a PAIR AGAIN - FIRST BIRD ESTABLISHED then I have always accepted those referees decisions without argument.

 

[Hawkeye]

There is a difference between breaking both target's with one shot and breaking a target and a piece of that target breaks the second. Different ruling! If you read the rule book you will find both and will no longer be confused

 

[Skeet UK]

I'm not arguing, I just have a different opinion.

Personally I think you are misreading it, but nevertheless all I am really trying to say is that, from experience, and not just from one particular ground or referee, I have witnessed the situation that I described on literally hundreds of occasions all over the country.

But I'm a laid back kind of guy, so I am more than happy for you to believe you're right and dozens of refs all over the UK to be wrong.

Either way, whenever I have personally been given a PAIR AGAIN - FIRST BIRD ESTABLISHED then I have always accepted those referees decisions without argument.

Yeah, it's all good and i am also pretty laid back, so don't think i am getting upset.  But...I am not misreading anything..I am reading what the OP wrote...nor am I misreading the CPSA rules as posted above.  In the instance that both birds of a pair are broken with the first shot, nothing is established and the pair is taken again.

I am well aware that you are extremely experienced, which is why I found it so hard to believe what you wrote. Considering I haven't seen the exact instance we are on about THAT many times by experienced shots, perhaps we are at crossed purposes.

You are absolutely right, without question...IF one of the birds is declared a No Bird.  So you shoot the high bird, but the low bird is declared a No Bird...then you would get first bird established, Pair Again..

The reason you can't get an established bird, if both are broken together.,..is because, if they are broken together...you cannot "establish" which was broken first...

That is not to say that your example could be attributed to a shot before the peg, where as you say, the second bird was broken by clay fragments etc. This would not look the same and of course the ref would probably give you the first bird and pair again.

I am on about the double kill often gained by inexperienced shots, not irregular targets for experienced shots, such as yourself.

 

[Skeet UK]

There is a difference between breaking both target's with one shot and breaking a target and a piece of that target breaks the second. Different ruling! If you read the rule book you will find both and will no longer be confused

That's right Brian.  I think Malcolm is referring to the later, and I and the OP are referring to the former

 

[Hawkeye]

Just as a matter of interest , what is the English Skeet Club ruling on this same question?

 

[Skeet UK]

Just as a matter of interest , what is the English Skeet Club ruling on this same question?

I would have thought that they go by the ESK Rules as outlined by the CPSA?  Do they not?

EDIT: Yup, pretty much

The target sequence, speed and rules will be as for English skeet with two exceptions:

• The loading of 2 cartridges will be optional.
• The result of the first target of any pair shot at (hit or missed) will be scored when the second target cannot be established as a result of a trap malfunction or is broken before the shooter has time to shoot it or is a no bird
•