1 shot 2 birds - what happehns?

[Hawkeye]

My question was for GG , but never mind. 

 

[Hawkeye]

thought it might help to clarify thing's

 

[P1Fanatic]

. what have I started? I was specifically referring to the case where it is obvious that your first shot broke both clays in the pair as they were shot very close together. It has only happened twice in about 10 rounds of skeet with 5 shooters but caused confusion each time.

I will go with the retake pair no shot established until such time as I enter a comp (a long way off haha) and then I can ask the ref beforehand

Cheers
Simon

 

[EdSolomons]

If its sporting, any double break counts as killed. Even if it is clearly shatter from first clay that breaks the second target. Different to ESK.

No true Will, it only counts if it is broken by a component of the cartridge (so wad or shot). Clay fragments should not count if it were to happen.

 

[P1Fanatic]

Hi Simon.

It tends to happen if you track the bird too long and try and take it over the peg and scores no targets and will eventually cost targets as Skeetfreak pointed out.

It isn't "good", it shows lack of skill/experience.  Obviously this is fine, if you haven't shot lots of Skeet

People will tell you to shoot birds over the peg for the singles, but you can't do it for the doubles.  You shouldn't really do it at all in that case!

Shoot the first bird well before the peg (shoot it 2/3rds the way from the trap to the peg), then slow down, get the gun turned for the low bird, collect it as it comes over the peg, then shoot it in pretty much the same place you shot the first bird.

Always shoot the singles where you will shoot the doubles.  Even on 3 and 5.  That way there are only about 14 kill points to remember (sight pictures) rather than 25.

If you require further explanation, feel free to ask.  Skeetfreak also knows what I am on about.

I would think the "third repeated occurrence" would be consecutive ones on the same stand.  As if you did it twice on 4 then once on 6, you would have had four singles in between!

Thanks for the advice. I have dabbled a few years back at sporting venues that had a skeet setup and did have a lesson at Bisley quite a few years ago. But have only started shooting skeet regularly this year and I do really enjoy it although still only probably shot 10 rounds so far.

My best is only 21/25. I seem mostly ok on the pairs but let myself down on what to me seem to be the easy singles like the high house stand 1 and low house stand 7. Probably more to do with concentration and not taking any shot for granted. And when I say ok on the pairs I mean for my level of experience as I tend to get the 2nd pretty late. But I do realise the importance of taking the 1st shot quickly.

Cheers

Simon

 

[Guerini Guy]

Just as a matter of interest , what is the English Skeet Club ruling on this same question?

I have no idea Bryan as I have not shot an English Skeet Club event for more than a year. As far as I remember they always used the CPSA rules apart from loading of the cartridge for a repeat, and the sequence for shoot-offs?

 

[Hawkeye]

5.41 REPEAT DOUBLES:
A repeat double will be thrown to establish the results of both targets if:
5.42 The first target leaves the trap broken.

 

[Hawkeye]

5.43 The targets collide before the shooter fires at the first target.
5.44 The shooter does not fire due to either target being an irregular target.  In this case, the referee 
will be the sole judge of whether a target is an irregular target.
5.45 A gun malfunction occurs when taking the first shot.  On the third malfunction in a round, the 
target will be scored lost.
5.46 Both targets are broken with the first shot.  On the third repeated occurrence, the first target 
will be scored “hit” and the second target “lost”. 
The result of the first shot is established and a repeat double taken to determine the result of the second 
shot only when:
5.47 The second target emerges broken. 
5.48 The flight of the second target is irregular and is not shot at.  
5.49 A gun malfunction occurs when taking the second shot.  On the third malfunction in a round 
the target will be scored lost.
5.50 The second target is not thrown.
5.51 It is not a simultaneous pair.
5.52 The first target is missed (scored “lost”) and the second broken with the first shot.
5.53 The first target is missed (scored “lost”) and the targets then collide.
5.54 Pieces from the first target properly shot break the second target before it can be shot.
5.55 When the first target of a regular double is scored “lost” and for whatever reason a repeat 
double is then required, if the shooter fires at or breaks the wrong target first, the result of the repeat 
double will be scored as “pair lost”.
5.56 If the first target of a regular double is scored “hit” and for whatever reason a repeat double 
is required, if the shooter fires at or breaks the wrong target first, the result of the repeat double will be 
scored as first target “hit”, second target “lost”.
5.57 For Station Four, any repeat double must be shot in the same nominated order as the first 
regular double.
5.58 The Referee prevents the competitor from shooting their second shot because of a violation 
of Booklet 5 2.09 and 2.10 (Foot Fault).  If the competitor has already been warned of the same violation 
during the same round, the result of the first shot will be recorded and the second target will be declared 
“Lost”.

 

[Hawkeye]

Shoot both target's with the first cartridge , pair again - nothing established

 

[Hawkeye]

Just as a matter of interest , what is the English Skeet Club ruling on this same question?

I have no idea Bryan as I have not shot an English Skeet Club event for more than a year. As far as I remember they always used the CPSA rules apart from loading of the cartridge for a repeat, and the sequence for shoot-offs?

Might be worth looking at the English Skeet club website to check what their ruling is.

www.englishskeetclub.co.uk

 

[Guerini Guy]

Really not interested in what is on the English Skeet Club website !

My posts above have all related to what has actually happened hundreds of times in the past, depending upon what the ref sees or decides. I have personally never read the rules in my life and have no current desire to do so, so my comments are based purely on years of personal experience.

Since this thread started I have also phoned numerous skeet refs who have all agreed with my opinion. Now that may not be the rules, but that is what is often done I can assure you. I may be an old git but I'm not senile yet and I guarantee that it has been called that way many, many times, and from what I have been told it still will be by many refs in the future.

If the many refs who I have witnessed have all decided to use some poetic license to call "Pair Again - First Bird Established", in the belief that the shot killed the first bird, then I guess that is their decision.

If that is what the ref calls, then it is not cheating for the shooter not to argue the point, or is it?

Hmmm . . . . . . interesting point ?

Discuss !

 

[RobertBeard]

I thought we were not supposed to dispute the referees calls!

 

[Hawkeye]

perhaps someone should tell the ref's that are doing thing's right that they are doing thing's wrong and should change their way's so that doing thing's wrong becomes doing thing's right . . . 

 

[Guerini Guy]

Very helpful  :crazy:

 

[P1Fanatic]

5.43 The targets collide before the shooter fires at the first target.
5.44 The shooter does not fire due to either target being an irregular target.  In this case, the referee 
will be the sole judge of whether a target is an irregular target.
5.45 A gun malfunction occurs when taking the first shot.  On the third malfunction in a round, the 
target will be scored lost.
5.46 Both targets are broken with the first shot.  On the third repeated occurrence, the first target 
will be scored “hit” and the second target “lost”. 
The result of the first shot is established and a repeat double taken to determine the result of the second 
shot only when:
5.47 The second target emerges broken. 
5.48 The flight of the second target is irregular and is not shot at.  
5.49 A gun malfunction occurs when taking the second shot.  On the third malfunction in a round 
the target will be scored lost.
5.50 The second target is not thrown.
5.51 It is not a simultaneous pair.
5.52 The first target is missed (scored “lost”) and the second broken with the first shot.
5.53 The first target is missed (scored “lost”) and the targets then collide.
5.54 Pieces from the first target properly shot break the second target before it can be shot.
5.55 When the first target of a regular double is scored “lost” and for whatever reason a repeat 
double is then required, if the shooter fires at or breaks the wrong target first, the result of the repeat 
double will be scored as “pair lost”.
5.56 If the first target of a regular double is scored “hit” and for whatever reason a repeat double 
is required, if the shooter fires at or breaks the wrong target first, the result of the repeat double will be 
scored as first target “hit”, second target “lost”.
5.57 For Station Four, any repeat double must be shot in the same nominated order as the first 
regular double.
5.58 The Referee prevents the competitor from shooting their second shot because of a violation 
of Booklet 5 2.09 and 2.10 (Foot Fault).  If the competitor has already been warned of the same violation 
during the same round, the result of the first shot will be recorded and the second target will be declared 
“Lost”.

The first time I read that I didn't see the colon after 5.46 so was still reading it as a continuation of the previous points.

Anyway nice to see its about a clear as mud with rules vs reality. Will stick to repeat and first not established and "then" if I ever enter a comp and its first bird established then better for me.

 

[timps]

I thought we were not supposed to dispute the referees calls!

You can for certain things, it is covered under Protests in the rules an regulations.

2.52 If a competitor disagrees with the Referee’s decision regarding a shot, protest should be made immediately by raising the arm and saying, “Protest” or “Appeal”. 

If the referee disagrees with your protest you can then take it to the jury with a fee of £20, if your protest is successful then you get the £20 back.

What you cannot dispute is for hit, loss or no birds.

2.55 If the Jury finds the protest justified, it can give the Referee direction for future decisions or appoint a new Referee. The Jury may alter the decision, PROVIDING THIS DOES NOT CONCERN A DECISION ON “HIT OR LOST TARGETS” AND “NO TARGETS”. On these points, the Referee’s decision is final.

So in this case your appeal would be successful as it is clearly covered in the rules.

 

[RobertBeard]

I think it will be a while before I shall be in such dire need of a point to have to protest but of course understand that there has to be  a protest procedure.

By the way the challenge fee in smallbore target shooting is £2 if you dispute your score on a shot card - somewhat less than the fee to protest to a clay shooting jury!

 

[Darkside]

£2 interesting...

 

[RobertBeard]

I would have thought that would have appealed to you as you are feeling so squeezed from all directions!

 

[JonSkeet2]

Really not interested in what is on the English Skeet Club website !

My posts above have all related to what has actually happened hundreds of times in the past, depending upon what the ref sees or decides. I have personally never read the rules in my life and have no current desire to do so, so my comments are based purely on years of personal experience.

Since this thread started I have also phoned numerous skeet refs who have all agreed with my opinion. Now that may not be the rules, but that is what is often done I can assure you. I may be an old git but I'm not senile yet and I guarantee that it has been called that way many, many times, and from what I have been told it still will be by many refs in the future.

If the many refs who I have witnessed have all decided to use some poetic license to call "Pair Again - First Bird Established", in the belief that the shot killed the first bird, then I guess that is their decision.

If that is what the ref calls, then it is not cheating for the shooter not to argue the point, or is it?

Hmmm . . . . . . interesting point ?

Discuss !

As an ESK Ref I agree with GG.

If it is clear that the second target was broken by fragments of the first and not hit directly I would give pair again first bird established.  If the pair are clearly hit with the first shot then it's pair again nothing established, do it 3 times and it's pair lost.

IIRC the one thing a Jury will not overturn it's a referees decision after the fact.  If you have an issue with the referees opinion you should put your hand up and dispute it there and then.  Referees are generally in favour of the shooter.

Jon.