Breaking news: High rib gun freaks man out at Orston

[Lloyd]

Went to Orston yesterday with my son and shot skeet for the first time. Foot note, the pair from the middle stand... holy cow! I only ever saw one clay

Anyway, my son was trying out the Blaser F16 as he is right handed and therefore can’t really try my F16 out. The plan is for him to inherit my F16 as I have done a deal on an F3. We’re planning on visiting Manuel Riccardo next spring (hopefully)  and wanted my son to just get a feel for the F16 before committing as he’s been using a silver pigeon and before that a B525. He really likes the F16 so that solves a problem with what to do with it.

Anyhow, we go into the Gunshop and chatting to Johnathan in there, he hands me a F3 vantage. I’m expecting to be staring at the back of a load of rib but WTF!

What I saw was a completely flat picture. I like to see a bit of rib, so my face would need to come up maybe 1/8”, but on my F16 which is a flat rib gun of course, I added 6mm to the comb and I see quite a bit of rib, the POA and POI being very good now.

So, I have to say the high rib Vantage really took me by surprise and now has my head in a spin. Do I adjust my F3 order and go with the Vantage barrels or do I stick which what I know?

Your experience, opinions, advice and insults as always welcome 

PS

@diver682 I remembered what you told me about your first experience with the Guerini 

This has really put the cat amongst the pigeons 

 

[diver682]

Went to Orston yesterday with my son and shot skeet for the first time. Foot note, the pair from the middle stand... holy cow! I only ever saw one clay

Anyway, my son was trying out the Blaser F16 as he is right handed and therefore can’t really try my F16 out. The plan is for him to inherit my F16 as I have done a deal on an F3. We’re planning on visiting Manuel Riccardo next spring (hopefully)  and wanted my son to just get a feel for the F16 before committing as he’s been using a silver pigeon and before that a B525. He really likes the F16 so that solves a problem with what to do with it.

Anyhow, we go into the Gunshop and chatting to Johnathan in there, he hands me a F3 vantage. I’m expecting to be staring at the back of a load of rib but WTF!

What I saw was a completely flat picture. I like to see a bit of rib, so my face would need to come up maybe 1/8”, but on my F16 which is a flat rib gun of course, I added 6mm to the comb and I see quite a bit of rib, the POA and POI being very good now.

So, I have to say the high rib Vantage really took me by surprise and now has my head in a spin. Do I adjust my F3 order and go with the Vantage barrels or do I stick which what I know?

Your experience, opinions, advice and insults as always welcome 

PS

@diver682 I remembered what you told me about your first experience with the Guerini 

This has really put the cat amongst the pigeons 

Hi Lloyd,  The best advice i could give you is try before you buy. Find somewhere with one for sale that you can try, like i did at Ian Coleys , the only way your going to know is to shoot one.

Its all down to personal preference at the end of the day, some like me would never change from a high rib, others will say its all a gimmick and wouldn't touch one

Go with what feels right for you, hope that helps you cross the minefield  :frantics:

 

[Wonko the Sane]

What you see of the rib has nothing to do with where the gun actually shoots for you.I have guns with ribs from flat to way tall and inbetween and they all shoot to the same POI cos I've adjusted the fit of the gun so they do.  The form of the actual rib or what I see of it is really of no consequence.

And yes I do understand from reading here that the concept of adjusting the height of the eye as representative of a rear sight to alter POI is disparaged as a meaningless activity by the English shooting community at this site.  In that context you're in trouble IMO.  Besta luck

 

[Will Hewland]

Yes it’s all personal preference. My mate is a AAA shot and is incredible with his F3 Vantage on a good day. However, he has a bizarre low gun mount and shoots like his spine doesn’t work, so the whole set up is very individual. Very few top shots use a high rib. But see how you like it over 200+ targets. 

 

[Cosmicblue]

I replaced the infamous Benelli 828U Sport with a 32" non-adjustable F3 Vantage courtesy of Ian Coley's emporium a few months ago

I really like the Vantage - definitely a more head-up shooting style, same sight-pictures as a normal gun but with more peripheral vision/target awareness.   It's hard to describe - I'm less aware of the gun obscuring my view of the target I guess.

'My other gun' is a beautiful 33" HPX Perazzi MX12 DSR that was custom made for me - truth is that I shoot better with the Vantage.  The Blaser is lighter (only have the stock weights installed) and an absolute pleasure to shoot.   I can't comment on scores because I stopped worrying about that stuff - now once I've broken a pair I'll try a different technique - the Vantage is versatile in that regard too.  

 

[Lloyd]

After careful thought and reading all your comments, it dawned on me why I was so surprised. 
it hadn’t occurred to me that the drop on a F3 Pro is 38/50 or 40/55m. On the Vantage it is 37/48mm

Measured from the rib of course. The rib On the vantage being about 15mm higher, this the stock is about the same relative to the rib. I completely overlooked this simple fact.  Is I can see why I gives a more head up position and how that given the same amount of drop on a flat rib gun I see the back of the breach and the top of the rib on the vantage. 
 

What this actually means I’ve still yet to fully understand. I’m going to have to take a test drive

Thanks y’all for your enlightening opinion and experiences. 

 

[Will Hewland]

After careful thought and reading all your comments, it dawned on me why I was so surprised. 
it hadn’t occurred to me that the drop on a F3 Pro is 38/50 or 40/55m. On the Vantage it is 37/48mm

Measured from the rib of course. The rib On the vantage being about 15mm higher, this the stock is about the same relative to the rib. I completely overlooked this simple fact.  Is I can see why I gives a more head up position and how that given the same amount of drop on a flat rib gun I see the back of the breach and the top of the rib on the vantage. 
 

What this actually means I’ve still yet to fully understand. I’m going to have to take a test drive

Thanks y’all for your enlightening opinion and experiences. 

The idea is to lift your view away from the action and to allow you to stand more upright, or have your neck upright really. This all works, but there are a few downsides potentially; that the barrels may end up heavy and that there is a view of the side of the rib (through left eye with r/h shooter), which is the bit I find distracting especially on a rising crosser.

 

[Doctor Lecter]

ive just bought a summit asscent    only shot 100 clays at orston    nice sight picture , head up , shoulders relaxed .  all good so far  but its early days !!!

 

[ips]

And yes I do understand from reading here that the concept of adjusting the height of the eye as representative of a rear sight to alter POI is disparaged as a meaningless activity by the English shooting community at this site. 

Not all Charles

 

[k80ben]

How many high ribs are used at the top level and your answer will glare at you! 

 

[ips]

One has to fanny about with various things and fads, its all part of the journey

 

[Cosmicblue]

Some thoughts:

1) Raised vs High ribs.  Need to be sensitive to terminology - there are 'High' top rib designs,  usually intended for trap disciplines that are genuinely high - look like a perforated skeleton girder attached to the top rib.  For Sporters there are Raised top rib designs that are a few millimetres higher than a conventional flat rib gun.  

2) To Ben's point yes, that's true, at the top level raised/high rib guns are not often found - probably for no other reason than most of us learned to shoot conventional guns, if your scores are solid then why put that relentless pursuit of better performance at risk?  If one is nearer the front edge of the learning curve there is less to be lost in learning something new/potentially advantageous

3) The shotgun market is intensely traditional and takes decades to embrace new ideas as an example most quality shotguns have wooden stocks despite the fact that the natural material is prone to split/crack/absorb water and go soft from prolonged contact with oil.  There are much more suitable materials than the inside of a walnut tree - and yet the vast majority of new shotguns come with timber as the stock material.  It will be the same with raised ribs, over time the advantages will be understood, a top level shooter will make the leap - seeking that illusive extra 1% of competitive advantage, be successful and progress will crawl forward again.

PS.  A lovely bit of wood is essential and I wouldn't buy a composite stock shotgun for aesthetic reasons..... 

 

[Lloyd]

How many high ribs are used at the top level and your answer will glare at you! 

Sorry Ben, but I rather think that’s an observation, not for me a conclusive answer.

The idea is to lift your view away from the action and to allow you to stand more upright, or have your neck upright really. This all works, but there are a few downsides potentially; that the barrels may end up heavy and that there is a view of the side of the rib (through left eye with r/h shooter), which is the bit I find distracting especially on a rising crosser.

I tried two F3’s in the shop Will. Each were balanced quite differently. The first was a 32” LH and was indeed a bit nose heavy.

The second was a 30” RH and was much more ‘neutral’. All this was just in the confines of the Gunshop mind you.

That said, the gun has to weigh more overall and I’ve expressed my opinion, about overall gun mass in my mind means you have greater inertia and how can that be good? It’s all very academic of course, but I personally experience  less of an issue making fine adjustments in acceleration and sight picture than I do in overcoming inertia/momentum.

I think I’ll probably go back and as @ips said, will fanny about with the vantage a bit. I imagine I’ll stay with what I have, but I always try to keep an open mind,   but of course, much like any other I have biases 

 

[paul b]

Lloyd the stock and barrel weights can easily be altered to suit your preferences,personally ive used 34,32and 30 inch ,and ther all move the same once i played with the balance.

On the higher rib of the vantage wich is what i use,when i went from the pro to the vantage it took a bit of time to make my brain trust the new picture in my peripheral as i alays had the muzzles in there but now they are less of a factor.I have a sensitive jaw and find the more upright head position sits my jaw more squarely on the comb instead of the end of the bone when tilting the head forward for a flat rib.

 

[Cosmicblue]

I seem to recall that Blaser claim that the F3 barrels for a given model all weigh the same, irrespective of length so that they can be changed without altering balance. 

 

[Lloyd]

I seem to recall that Blaser claim that the F3 barrels for a given model all weigh the same, irrespective of length so that they can be changed without altering balance. 

Yes, I’ve had that confirmed by numerous sources that should be in the know and by that, I’m not meaning gun shop staff with an agenda. ( I wasn’t born cynical... the world made me that way)

That said, I’m not sure how you could compensate for a rib. There’s quite a bit of material in there. There’s only about 40 grams typically between 30 and 32”. You only need increase barrel wall thickness by about 1/10mm to make up the difference if I recollect correctly 

 

[Cosmicblue]

I don't think the top rib is steel.  Looking carefully at the breech end of the rib on the Vantage it would appear that the top barrel has a male dovetail strip that corresponds with a female slot in the underside of the rib - as they are two different materials that would allow for expansion.

 

[Lloyd]

I don't think the top rib is steel.  Looking carefully at the breech end of the rib on the Vantage it would appear that the top barrel has a male dovetail strip that corresponds with a female slot in the underside of the rib - as they are two different materials that would allow for expansion.

Yes, of course. You could be right there. If the Pro has say a  steel rib and the vantage an anodised aluminium rib, I guess they could be about the same mass.

I have to admit, when I tried the 30” Vantage and the 32” pro, both felt the same, but balance is everything, the 32” vantage feeing heavier on the muzzle.

My stock weights are wound all the way back to the butt pad and am sans barrel weights

 

[Cosmicblue]

My Vantage is the way I bought it - used.  Barrel weights are still in the Blaser wrapper, the gun is perfectly balanced on the pin.