Cartridge prices

[Anni]

Without a doubt one of the most ill informed rants ever, the manufacturers must be rubbing there hands together thinking what excuse they can use now to put up prices as you obviously still want to spend more money on shells, twenty years ago lead reached £1000 a ton now it trades at £800 a ton machines are ten times more efficient and they no longer use solid brass, FACT the cartridge manufacterers are in good order  and not quite ready to go clothcap in hand thankfully so lets keep it real and if your not really sure then best left unsaid. :wink:

There's more than Lead that goes into producing a Cartridge. And you can't use scrap lead, it has to be clean. I doubt cartridge prices have gone up in the last few years due to Lead prices.

My point was that we seem to pay as much for a Cartridge as we do for a clay. yet the cost of producing a cartridge must be more.

I don't want to spend more money on shells, I haven't got it to spend. I know I've picked an expensive sport. I know when I want to go to the Essex Masters it's going to cost me a fair few quid in Diesel, Entry fees, Cartridges.

"Fact, the Cartridge Manufacturers are in good order" Some of them are, Some of them won't be making as much profit as some of this countrys shooting grounds, Fact.

Ill informed? Nothing I wrote in my previous comment was untrue.

 

[Anni]

 And it's always the ill informed who go on about lead.

Powder is expensive, Shipping powder costs thousands and thousands, And it has to be stored off sight.

 

[webber]

Just coming back on a few points raised by members.

Norgas have sponsored a shooter, we will go public when Fiocchi get the clothing sorted and we can post some pictures.

The Fiocchi family own a lead recycling business, it provides the majority of the lead for shot.

Please remember that you pay 20% VAT, please be assured that the VAT man is on a bigger cut than I am.

webber

 

[Shaun Hopkins]

This is an expensive Sport/Hobbie, get over it. It isn't the 1980's anymore, when shooting was cheap. I talk to shooters of that era and they were shooting three, four shoots a week. a couple of registereds on a sunday, and loads of practice in the summer weekday evenings. Brilliant!

Those days are gone I'm affraid. Unless like a lot of the top shots in this Country, you have a few quid or rich parents.

The "Let's Boycot  Manufacturers" Brigade are, in my opinion, as bad as the "Let's ban Guns" Bellends. They can never tell you how much a Cartridge Manufacturer makes on a thousand shells. Yes, they make Profit. Greed isn't another word for Profit. They don't make nearly as much as you think. I know.

Now, for every Cartridge I pull out of my Skeet vest, there is a Clay I'm going to shoot, or in most cases, miss. Now when I look at that Cartridge, a mid price, mid range shell, and I work out the price of that single shell, let's say 15, 20 pence, and I think about what goes into making them shells. The Case, the Brass head, Primer, Powder, Wad, lead, Ink, The inner Box, the outer box, Labelling, the Machine operator and energy to run the machines. Transport, Logistics, Admin staff, Rates, Taxes, Insurance, (Waste disposal, which has to be paid for) Staff wages, Vehicles, Retailers, the list goes on.

Does that amount of cost/work go into a Clay? I doubt it. I never give the cost of them a second thought when they fly off into the distance.

There is a hell of alot of cost that goes into making a Cartridge. That is a fact.

Let's Boycott Manufacturers, If these firms were to disappear, I believe with all the red tape, they would not be replaced. That's great. what the f*** do I do on a Sunday then?. Read the Bible and go for a walk? f*** that. Do you think the firms on foreign soil will send us free Cartridges? Nope.

There are to many People in this Country who would like to stop me from Owning a Gun and Making lots of noise on a Sunday morning with it.. Why don't you worry about them than the price of the Sport?

I dislike paying £150, £200 for anything, especially something I'm going to throw in the bin. But when I work out the positive things about Shooting clay targets, the friendships, the excitment, the getting out and about all over the country, and, in this Sport, being able to stand behind and compete against some of the Greatest shots in the World, then in my opinion it is a price worth paying.

I wish it was cheaper as I would do more of it. As I'm sure every other shooter in this Country would.

 First and foremost i personally do not find it an expensive sport and as such do not need "To get over it" secondly as far as the 80s are concerned i doubt pound for pound not much has changed i also knew people then as now who shot numerous times a week but rest assured i doubt many have or had a big mortgage and young family no change there then, as for boycotting is concerned that was not even mentioned but don't we all buy petrol from the cheapest garage and shop at tesco instead of waitrose or search for the cheapest gas and electric tariffs does that mean we are being unfair and boycotting, also i have no intention to pay for the privilage to shoot behind George digweed or anyone else that includes you Mr Solomons!

  If you refer back to my original post i was merely stating that the buisness model used by countryway guns worked and kept cartridge cost very competetive we live in a free market and thats the way things work best. And a Happy new year to all

 

[Anni]

The "get over it" wasn't directed solely at you and your original post.

 It is an expensive Sport or Hobbie for, I would say the majority of shooters, whatever type of clay shooting they do, including me. If you don't find it expensive then you're one of the lucky ones.

I don't believe "the biggest threat to the future of clay shooting was the cost of ammo" as you said. I pointed out that when you go shooting it is one of a many expensive things that had to be paid for. there are bigger threats out there.

I also pointed out that I couldn't see the amount of money and effort being put into the making of a single clay. but we never hear people saying anything about "putting preasure" on them.

I never said anything about paying for the privilage to shoot behind George Digweed or anyone else. I meant you can compete against them. Shooting alongside good shots is a good learning experience I have found. I've learnt alot and been given some good advice on my shooting.

Although I would pay to shoot behind Mr Solomons, his mum says he's a very good boy.

I wasn't a shooter in the 80's 90's, but they were shooting a hell of alot more. Be interesting to know why this was. Was it cheaper back then? Maybe the ladds I shoot with now were single and morgage free?. I know a few of them were addicted to it and still are. 15/20 thousand Carts a year are some of the numbers they throw at you. I know maybe some of the top shots shoot that amount and more these days, but these were normal working ladds back then.

Did they find Cartridges were a painfull buy back then as we find it now?

Happy new year, Shoot well. 

 First and foremost i personally do not find it an expensive sport and as such do not need "To get over it" secondly as far as the 80s are concerned i doubt pound for pound not much has changed i also knew people then as now who shot numerous times a week but rest assured i doubt many have or had a big mortgage and young family no change there then, as for boycotting is concerned that was not even mentioned but don't we all buy petrol from the cheapest garage and shop at tesco instead of waitrose or search for the cheapest gas and electric tariffs does that mean we are being unfair and boycotting, also i have no intention to pay for the privilage to shoot behind George digweed or anyone else that includes you Mr Solomons!

  If you refer back to my original post i was merely stating that the buisness model used by countryway guns worked and kept cartridge cost very competetive we live in a free market and thats the way things work best. And a Happy new year to all

 

[Salopian]

Just a couple of points,

ShaunMK38, I think that I did mention earlier that we should boycott the rip off merchants, I do and always have done, so no apology required there.

Anni, I do have to say, and pardon me for saying so but your theories don't stack up or hold water.

Scrap Lead is recyclable and is used in the shot manufacturing industry, Powder does have to be stored securely and environmentally friendly, but the cartridge manufacturers factor this into their business model. You should have come and seen us at Express cartridges 25 years ago in Stratford Rd. B'ham.

The fact is that many of the cartridge manufacturers have had a good quality of life for a long time, but now they, like the rest of us are having to tighten their belts, some are squealing like stuck pigs.

But all that being said all we the competitor wants is a fair product at a fair profitable price. I would be the last person to expect anyone to work for nothing.

 

[Graeme Rice]

Six years ago lead was the cheapest component in a cartridge, now the most expensive.

There is no powder, wad or case manufactures in the Uk, all the components are imported, haulage has risen by 75% in 3 years, diesel in Italy is now more expensive than the UK.

The £ is worth 20-30% less than 10 years ago against the Euro, personally I think you are lucky that shells are still as cheap as they are!

I used to pay £85 per 1000 for Eley Olympic Trap in 1977, and at that time vat was almost nowt.

If you do he sums shells are still cheap.

I know for a fact the former MD of Gamebore developed a wad making facility in Hull, and not all components are imported judging by some of the signatures in their visitors book (they do own their own 'Shotwell').

 Glad to know all the old lead flashings I collect over the year go to good use and the Scrap Man pays for my Christmas booze   

 

[Anni]

Which bits don't stack up? And I would be interested to hear who the "Rip off merchants are" ?

lead has to be processed into lead shot. That means when it comes to be made into lead shot, I'm guessing it isn't Scrap anymore, thus not worth Scrap value.  

Yes Powder has to be stored securely. for British Manufacturers it has to be shipped in at great expense. It's a hazardous material after all and has to be kept off site. that costs money.

And if Cartridge Manufacturers are having to tighten there belts and a few are Squealing like stuff pigs, what's the point of Boycotting them? Surely that's evidence that they are not making loads of money out of Shooters.

If you were at Express Cartridges all those years ago, why don't you fill us in on what exactly they were making on a thousand cartridges back then.

I don't like paying for Cartridges as much as the next shooter. My point is that it's one of a number of things we as shooters have to pay for, I can't see the clay I shoot at costing more than the Cartridge to make and throw. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Salopian]

The clay is a consumable of the shooting ground, not too long ago it cost less than 3p to buy from the manufacturer. But you have to factor in automatic clay trap price, land purchase, insurance, staff salaries,to arrive at the retail cost of 22p to 45p.

 

[Anni]

The clay is a consumable of the shooting ground, not too long ago it cost less than 3p to buy from the manufacturer. But you have to factor in automatic clay trap price, land purchase, insurance, staff salaries,to arrive at the retail cost of 22p to 45p.

I think that's how it works with Cartridges aswell, but in reverse. 

I know nothing about any "Rip off merchants" Cartridge companys. So maybe my views differ from yours.

 

[Hamster]

The rip off merchants tag has stuck for one simple reason. When shells were rising in price month by month the manufacturers told us it was lead prices that were the cause, when lead prices dropped the shells stayed or rose in price and we were then told stuff like fuel were the cause. The reality was they'd got a taste for things and they were never going to go back.

 

[Will Hewland]

When manufacturers have cost reductions, it is actually awkward to reduce prices, as their distributors (gun shops) will have stock that is suddenly devalued. Hence prices tend to go up, but then stabilise rather than drop and bounce around perhaps..

 

[PhilS]

When manufacturers have cost reductions, it is actually awkward to reduce prices, as their distributors (gun shops) will have stock that is suddenly devalued. Hence prices tend to go up, but then stabilise rather than drop and bounce around perhaps..

True.  It's the same argument from the fuel companies, be it gas, petrol or deisel.  Once prices drop stock that is out in the market place devalues = unhappy distributers.

Not that I'm sticking up for them but they can't win either way!

 

[Salopian]

On the price fluctuation theme how do you explain the fuel price fluctuation and price war?

The forecourts buy at a certain price and then sell. When ever they drop the prices they don't do it after having a fuel delivery!

 You wouldn't stock up with cartridges and then discount them, you would wait until you were expecting new stock bought at a lower price and then pass on some of the savings.

I notice that no one has replied about the Hull Superfast marketing ploy!

But hey ! Is this topic not a useless exercise, prices aren't going to drop so why are we talking about it?

 

[PhilS]

On the price fluctuation theme how do you explain the fuel price fluctuation and price war?

The forecourts buy at a certain price and then sell. When ever they drop the prices they don't do it after having a fuel delivery!

 You wouldn't stock up with cartridges and then discount them, you would wait until you were expecting new stock bought at a lower price and then pass on some of the savings.

I notice that no one has replied about the Hull Superfast marketing ploy!

But hey ! Is this topic not a useless exercise, prices aren't going to drop so why are we talking about it?

The price fluctuations that you see at the pumps are local suppliers responding to other local suppliers within limits. It is nothing to do with input price, just marketting. 

You will notice that the national suppliers (Tesco & the like) do not have a standardised price for their fuels - their forecourts match local forecourts yet they pay one price for their fuel no matter where the forecourt is - it is centrally bought. 

The only decent variance we have seen in forecourt prices was government induced.

However, on 'small' stock level items you are correct, you vary the price on the cheaper shipment, once you have sold the dearer one.  That was what my comment meant - "unhappy distributers" meant that if they had to drop the prices on the dearer lot they would be unhappy, ergo they don't and they wait for the cheaper lot to hit the market place before lowering the price.  The problems come (using the fuel example again) when the lower input prices are not reflected at retail until the government has to intervene, as it did, and should do again!

I must have missed the one about the Hull Superfast marketting ploy, can you point me at it?

 

[Salopian]

PhilS, read post No 77 about Hull Superfast. 

Quote:-

' The problems come (using the fuel example again) when the lower input prices are not reflected at retail until the government has to intervene, as it did, and should do again!'

Oh yes I can just see the Government intervene to make shooting cheaper!  Not!

As I said a couple of posts ago, this conversation is academic really as prices are unlikely to be lowered, because we are a captive market and need cartridges to go shooting. It is noticable that entries are down, obviously because of the effects of the overall state of the economy. Youngsters are struggling to get on the property ladder whilst silver surfers with disposable income are shooting more often as a social event. So shooting will not actually fade away it will just change it's customer face.

 

[PhilS]

As I said a couple of posts ago, this conversation is academic really as prices are unlikely to be lowered, because we are a captive market and need cartridges to go shooting. It is noticable that entries are down, obviously because of the effects of the overall state of the economy. Youngsters are struggling to get on the property ladder whilst silver surfers with disposable income are shooting more often as a social event. So shooting will not actually fade away it will just change it's customer face.

Agreed.

 

[DoubleBarrelledDon]

No has yet commented on this interesting post.

According to this http://adroitresources.ca/antimony/supply-demand/ there is only 8 years supply of antimony left in the world and the price has probably moved accordingly. This might push the move to steel shot more than the risks of lead pollution.

If this is right and I have no reason to doubt it then its game over.... with the US department of defence already stockpiling the stuff as a critical element, the chinese controlling the world supply and the price hitting £13 k per ton and climbing like a missile then it wont be long before trade in it becomes government controlled at which point useage will be prioritised and we definitely wont be on that list!!    So it may well be that lead pollution is indded the reddest herring of all.......

However..until doomsday comes..and i admit i have posted this elsewhere on the site....

each cartridge has a primer (2 components plus ignition powder) a base wad, a case, a head, a shotwad, propellent powder and of course lead shot (or steel if i really want to pick a fight ) so thats a precision engineered product made up of 9 separate components thats undergone some of the most exacting quality control practices known to man and it costs for arguments sake 18 pence each. Now i might be a bit dull but I cant think of much that you can get for 18p these days....

People go into business to make a living and im sure that there are more than a few members here that buy in commodities cheap and sell expenive.....or sell their time at more than a few quid an hour. So why are cartridge manufacturers not allowed to make a profit?? as to the "they were 2p per thousand when I was a boy" argument if you look back at the price of petrol, beer, cigarettes, cars and houses in the 80's and 90's then compare them to current equivalents you will see that most of those have gone up by considerably more than cartridges have.  Also dont forget that 30 years ago people had more disposable income because they didnt have sky TV / mobile phone / ipad / internet charges etc. Add that to the massive increase in insuring almost every aspect of life and theres a big chunk of what was formerly a disposable income removed from your potential shooting fund.

 

[Hamster]

I bought a Casio digital watch for £40 in 1977, they give them away for free now when you buy fuel. Electrical goods have thousands of components yet by and large they have greatly dropped in price over the years. 

Successful and long term manufacturing is about improvements and utilising ways of economies of scale. Part of the problem appears to be that most of the home manufacturers are getting left behind in that department which doesn't bode well for their future. I have no idea for instance how many Supremes Express manage to sell every month at £250+ a thou but I bet it isn't many, they could sit down and rethink their ranges a bit perhaps for a start, who needs a shell with 20mm brass?   :mellow:

 

[Salopian]

Many many excellant points made on this thread.

Good post by Don and food for thought from Hamster.

I am sure that the manufacturers know their customers, for instance why would Eley make VIP Game a premium price game shell and also make Imperial Game with a paper case and copper plated shot? Obviously because of market research and a demand.

Trap shooting will necessitate a quality shot with hardness to assist the shots passage through choked barrels to help maintain pattern density for down (long) range.

Sporting and Skeet  disciplines possibly do not require such highly technically developed cartridges due to the majority of closer range targets.

The majority of cartridge manufacturers are Italian where their major shooting discipline is Trap .

Perhaps here in the UK we could have a dedicated budget cartridge sufficiently good enough for Sporting and Skeet utilising soft lead shot and low brass cases.

In fact I am sure we already do from all of the manufacturers, but as with everything else once there is something bigger and better we all migrate towards it.

As I said earlier, I doubt prices will ever come down and in the greater scheme of things they are a relatively cheap part of the equation.

But we are British and we do like a good moan.