Competition Cartridge Rules

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maddmatt

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So, lots of threads recently on shells, which ones to use, which ones are 'soft' or low recoil etc. So what do you think the general reaction would be if the governing bodies decide to limit competition loads to 24g? Would we see the same uproar that we got from the old fitasc guard when FITASC introduced the lower restriction from 36g to 28g? Having recently shot some 24g loads I can say if I hadn't been told there were 24g I would have thought they were soft 28g's. So should the sport be proactive in terms of preventing possible long term injuries to shooters, from recoil etc and introduce a lower shell limit?

We already have hearing protection, eye protection, hats soon to be made mandatory (probably), so why not the shell? Or will this be a step too far, an 'elf n safety intrusion on our human rights that allow us the right to physically abuse ourselves?

 
Clay competition loads you mean :wink: some other competitions are still at 36grm :wink:

I have no problem with shooting what ever load they say, so long as everyone is on the same load. 

24 grms developed for the ISSF events showed just how clever a cartridge can be.

So long as it is not 'steel sh*te'.......or having to wear a hat. :wink:

 
Yes Nicola 24grams IS CLEVER

Also 28grams available from Tom at North Ayrshire or Fauxdegla.

 
I am with Nic on this one if the load is regulated for all shooters then there is no problem. I actually wonder if it is time for the load to be lowered to 20g for OT in an effort to make the breaking of targets more demanding and thus bring the more accurate shooter to the surface and possibly require less shoot offs. I may be off the mark but if the load could be reduced then it will possibly require a rethink on choke and shot pattern and that may make the target that much more difficult to hit with current choke and thus need a reduction in the shot spread. The effect being greater accuracy required!

 
I have tested 16grm....and if it went that low....I would give up.

P.s. Salop......did i say that I was only talking about Fiocchi being the cleverest ones.....?

 
I have tested 16grm....and if it went that low....I would give up.

P.s. Salop......did i say that I was only talking about Fiocchi being the cleverest ones.....?
My idea is put forward because the really top shots are powdering nearly every target with a 24g load, that tells me that in competition that load makes the sport too easy for the top shots. Reducing the load to 20g will make it more difficult to shoot 124ex 125 to reach the finals. I mean honestly does someone hitting 124 or even 125 not convey the notion that its just a wee bit too easy for these guys ? This is not an insult in anyway but an average to good shooter may struggle with the 20g load at OT tough luck that is not the point though the rule change is aimed at the very top shooters , who even I the final single barrel stages are blasting 25 straight some times that says to me raise the bar a bit!

 
Lets not confuse sporting and trap here. Different needs..

For what its worth, I would go with regulated 24g for sporting no probs.

 
Lets not confuse sporting and trap here. Different needs..

For what its worth, I would go with regulated 24g for sporting no probs.
Yes of course I am only talking OT and possibly UT here! I would have no problem shooting 20g loads if that is what is stipulated in the rules, I'd hit even fewer than I do now but it would be the same for everyone, however really good shooters would still buck that trend and continue to score high . Most of the trap shooters here train with 28g loads even for OT ??

 
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Yes of course I am only talking OT and possibly UT here! I would have no problem shooting 20g loads if that is what is stipulated in the rules, I'd hit even fewer than I do now but it would be the same for everyone, however really good shooters would still buck that trend and continue to score high . Most of the trap shooters here train with 28g loads even for OT ??
Lots of trap shooters at the lower end or the beginners end train on 28grm for many reasons...they do the same in Italy and here. C and D class can use 28 grm in registered shoots here if they choose to.

But for the newbies on here....lets be under no illusion....shooting a good score at your favourite ground with your mates (as we all like to do) is worlds apart from pulling it all together in an ISSF WC event anywhere in the World...(not to mention having to overcome various things like tempereture problems, sleep / hotel problems, food problems etc etc that can affect all the top athletes).

I know you (JWP) were joking when you said ..."does someone hitting 124 or even 125 not convey the notion that its just a wee bit too easy for these guys ". 

But for those who might have thought you meant it....can i offer a little bit of fact........OT on the World circuit could never be described as easy to anyone...even the top shots. If you did the stats ..you would find that...it is not the same person winning all the time. 

Anyone can excel with their score in any discipline if all the factors come together at the right time and the right place. There is nothing wrong with high scores....it is perfection of the game and not in any way easy for anyone......just saying.

At somepoint if you keep altering the balistics....you will lose the enjoyment of the sport.

What is so wrong with a straight...... for instance....anyone who might think that Ed's 200 straight at UT recently in Granada meant that it is easy....should seriously think again. Straights are perfection....not easy

My reference to 16 grm was just for information and not in comparison to 20? grm or 21grm.

I think there are two types of people ...those who play the sport and those who seriously compete at the sport.....and you probably all guess where i think the rules should be made from :wink:

Off back to work...wasted enough time today already :wink:

 
Interesting how peoples perception of why a shell load may need to be lowered, I first raised this on the health of the shooter, but from a target killed ratio I would say this, reducing cartridge loads to lower scores and make it harder to shoot those scores is folly, the very top shooters will adjust and still put high scores in and that is fact. If you want to lower scores I would first suggest using smaller clays, so go from a standard to a midi and up the speed by 10%. For what its worth, 21g loads actually produce a fast and tight shot string, and can be tailored to kill most targets, I tried some concept shells a few years ago at a fitasc shoot at Wylye, 21g load designed especially for fitasc, Ian had a teal bird on that was aprox 70 to 75 yards, the delay was noticeable when hit with a 28g shell. I shot it with the 21g and the delay was almost none existent!!

But I also agree with Will, different disciplines will require different rules if the end result is lower winning scores, BUT my main point for this thread was about recoil and shoulder injuries to shooters...

 
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MM..........Bordon please......lets make it really hard......asprin anyone :laugh:

 
Eh No I was not joking at all to be honest! I don't care who is winning the fact is the qualifying scores for the world cup comps are nearly always 123 to 125. It matters not who is doing it the fact is that is the score and in the final the gold is won by someone normally shooting 23or 24 ex 25 single shot after a shoot off. The point I am advocating is less is more! And you know what the next generation of Olympic trap shooting champions will still be on occasion shooting a perfect score, it will happen a lot less often and the margins between shooters will be greater because the new format will favour the more accurate shooter. Of course you have a lot more experience at these levels and your entitled to have your opinion, just don't go thinking it makes any more sense than mine. If seeing seven or eight shooters on 123ex 125 and requiring a shoot off floats your boat fine. I would rather see a gradient there with the really accurate shooter rewarded for it, unless of course you are saying luck enters into it :) Shooting is not the only sport that needs on occasion a bit of tweaking to produce a better result format. In conclusion why have this new OT final format when a more difficult straight twenty five target final would probably be more productive?

 
reducing cartridge loads to lower scores and make it harder to shoot those scores is folly, the very top shooters will adjust and still put high scores in and that is fact.

I am trying hard not to interpret this as meaning cartridge load is irrelevant to the ability to break a clay target. Even at the very highest level there is an echelon, not just in shooting in all sports sometimes the rules do not highlight that echelon enough! I am definitely not disagreeing that the very top shooters will still score high BUT reducing the cartridge load might just reduce the need for shoot offs to separate shooters who are in an echelon that can be further extrapolated by making things a little bit harder in the first place. To say removing close to 20 % of the shot from a cartridge does not make any difference to the ability to break a clay does not make sense to me, to take that to a really daft level Nic just told us she would pack it in if they reduced to 16g, why would that be?

Anyway I am very sorry for taking this thread off topic! :(

 
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Eh No I was not joking at all to be honest! I don't care who is winning the fact is the qualifying scores for the world cup comps are nearly always 123 to 125. It matters not who is doing it the fact is that is the score and in the final the gold is won by someone normally shooting 23or 24 ex 25 single shot after a shoot off. The point I am advocating is less is more! And you know what the next generation of Olympic trap shooting champions will still be on occasion shooting a perfect score, it will happen a lot less often and the margins between shooters will be greater because the new format will favour the more accurate shooter. Of course you have a lot more experience at these levels and your entitled to have your opinion, just don't go thinking it makes any more sense than mine. If seeing seven or eight shooters on 123ex 125 and requiring a shoot off floats your boat fine. I would rather see a gradient there with the really accurate shooter rewarded for it, unless of course you are saying luck enters into it :) Shooting is not the only sport that needs on occasion a bit of tweaking to produce a better result format. In conclusion why have this new OT final format when a more difficult straight twenty five target final would probably be more productive?
I am sure that as a new shooter to the joys of OT that you are probably quite right. Could i suggest that you write a letter to the ISSF who are the World Governing body for the sport to see if they could be interested in your suggestion.

I only shoot the discipline because I hate it and so i am the last person to say how any new rules should be done......it takes me all my time to get a regular 2 infront of the score.

So pen in hand and fill your boots matey.

Will you keep us informed if they go for it...?

 
 BUT reducing the cartridge load might just reduce the need for shoot offs to separate shooters who are in an echelon that can be further extrapolated by making things a little bit harder in the first place. 
Psst....can i suggest that in your letter to the ISSF that you do not mention the above..... I know you are new to OT but....the new arrangement of the finals was partly brought in to suit the TV broadcasts and the sponsorships. The idea behind it was along the lines of being made more interesting for people to watch on TV during Olympics or televised WC's.

(Now I have to 'really' go and get on with some work....but good luck...keep us informed.)

 
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Is it something about me or is Nic just always right! The new format was brought in to yes to create interest but yes also to negate an TV audience from dropping off in an endless shoot off fest for the medals, They saw it coming and thought we can't have it if we are to find a time slot for Trap shooting.

Yes Nic I am new to shooting not only OT but trap in general but you know something to debate you require something you do not possess. On any other forum your replies would be treated as trolling... true story... just saying!

 
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Occasionally a competition in far off countries has exceptionally hard clays, especially the flash targets. This drops the scores considerably. If you dropped the shot weight, it would just produce a farce. Same thing would happen on a wet windy day in the UK. A bit like giving the Archers arrows that where a bit too light to reach the target. IMO It's plenty hard enough especially on British soil. The high scores you see are abroad in good conditions with dry crisp clays.


http://www.tirovesti.co.uk/

 
I really do hope that they just leave things alone to be honest! My biggest worry is that they may one day make steel compulsory for OT. Many of us have old guns that are not made for steel shot.

 
Occasionally a competition in far off countries has exceptionally hard clays, especially the flash targets. This drops the scores considerably. If you dropped the shot weight, it would just produce a farce. Same thing would happen on a wet windy day in the UK. A bit like giving the Archers arrows that where a bit too light to reach the target. IMO It's plenty hard enough especially on British soil. The high scores you see are abroad in good conditions with dry crisp clays. http://www.tirovesti.co.uk/
Not suggesting dropping mass per shot but the amount of shot per cartridge. It takes just as many pellets to break a clay from a 28g load as it does from a 24g or a 20g. It would make it more difficult to get the number of shot on target from a smaller load though :) Irrelevant any way Jake I respect what I am being told and there is no need for a change. There can be ways of saying it though! The oracle has spoken :)

 
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