CPSA Classifications

[GlenPresley]

Nigel said:

Yes — it's not to effect the High Gun score in any way /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-wink.gif   can you see were I'm comin from now ?  it's a complicated system until you get your hear round it ( but then so are a lot of new ideas )  Nige

I agree with that Nige I don't agree with lower classes gaining extra targets to be able to compete with a AA or AAA for me that does not make sense. The way you suggest would work and is better all round./wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif

 

[Andy S]

GlenPresley said:

For me the whole classification system is set to low, what is the % for AAA now? 86 or87???Not many sporting shoots are won on this nowadays! i would say AAA is 90+ nowadays!

Glen from the CPSA classifications cut offESP AAA =86.6 & above AA = 82.4 - 86.5 A=75.1 - 82.3 B = 67.7 - 75.0C = 67.6 & belowWhich as you suggest is a bit low for AAA it looks like this needs a rethink as well! Andy

 

[Nigel]

Good - I think I'm gettin my thoughts across in words now, the way in the givin of targets can work like the given of shots in golf works would mean that you and me can have a shot together at the same targets and with me havin a certain amount of a handicap/birds we can compete for a net (points) prize. I hope I've got this across right /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-embarassed.gif Nige

 

[Nigel]

I would agree with you Andy, I'd like to hear Ed's thought's as he's at the top in Sporting classifications but I think Ed would agree with you too from I've heard him say in the past,  I'd love to sit down at a table with Ed or someone else at the top of the tree and discuss this face to face as I'm not good at gettin my points across in words. If anyone would want to discuss this I'd be happy to speak to them by phone to hear their thoughts. Nige

 

[GlenPresley]

Mmmmm I don't know if I would understand you better on the phone Nige! /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif

 

[jim french]

Sporting needs to get harder for the classes to work. High gun wants to be in the eighties.Bring back lead and choke.

 

[mick]

big jim said:

Sporting needs to get harder for the classes to work. High gun wants to be in the eighties.Bring back lead and choke.

dunno if i would agree with that jim to be honest. for me its about finding a happy medium. those of a lesser ability cannot be punished during a round of sporting clays in my opinion, but then again the best have to be tested, its finding the right balance.

 

[EdSolomons]

hi, I see exactly where nige is coming from- 2 prize levels, scratch and +handicap. This is how both world sporting and the handicap classic work. In the case of the handicap classic it is open to abuse still as Brian pointed out. It is often won with 110+ ex 100! Not much good for me if I have a handicap of 1 or 2!World sporting works much better, perhaps mark o will explain in detail if hes on here, I'm in a Bit of a rus at the mo so will leave it at that for now.The good point about using the point system is it does away with people worrying about raw scores- this is what is diluting the discipline in my eyes- the majority of shoots are set soft so people see big numbers and get a pat on the back. Toughen them up and use the point system and you will see real class divisions and the system can work.Look at the end of year averages and see how easy they are to manipulate- look at Martin myers, Richard kings, mine, and a few others averages and see how many different grounds that average is made from- quite a few. Then find a few others and look what they have done- 25 odd shoots from there closest/softest grounds. The averages are pointless for all as there are so many places to get a falsely high average, or go the other way and shoot the tough ones to put you in a lower class. You can make the numbers say pretty much anything... Points from hg takes the variable of target toughness out the equation.Ed

 

[optima]

I don't think making the shoots tougher is the answer all that will do is drive shooters of lesser ability away from the sport,at the end of the day people want to hit clays. I was shooting a well known Glousteshire shooting ground about 2 years ago and overheard a group of four shooters saying this is f------ ridiculous it's to hard,we won't come hear ever again,they were absolutely fuming but in my opinion it wasn't that bad a shoot,so to a top shot it probabley would have seemed easy.If you make a shoot extremely hard or quite easy the same people will always come out on top,we need to encourage people into the sport not  punish them,i know my mrs dreads me having a bad days shooting as apparently i'm a right moody git when i get home (her words not mine) thankfully i get that many bad days she's used to it now/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-frown.gif

 

[move-mount-miss]

Hi all, First post ever on any forum so please be gentle. I have played golf for 25 years and have been clay shooting 5 years, I am in C class (comfortably) and I'm also a member of a local straw bale clay club. The problem with having a shooting handicap is that the best you can do is straight the course, our straw bale club has a bottle shoot and a prize shoot. The best shooter never wins because his handicap is so low that even if he straighted the course he falls short! I think Ed S touched on this he would have to shoot 110 x 100 to win (impossible), whereas in golf it is always possible to better someboys' score. I would be interested to know how the World Sporting works Hope this makes sense

 

[ExSCA]

I think world sporting works by having a quicker turnaround on its handicap system. I can't help thinking that would solve the CPSA problem... shorter cycles in between updating the handicaps... would give a slightly larger margin of error, but would see people move around more.

 

[bonzodogdoodaband]

depends how easy it would be to go down in class too. could throw a couple of shoots and go down till the big bucks shoots!/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-surprised.gif

 

[Nigel]

if it's done on a point system from 1 -- 10  with  .5 being the decidin point to decide on movin up or down, if each time you shoot poorly below your class average you get a point back so if say you are on 5.4 and you shoot bad that one point you get back makes you up to 5.5 which in turn means your handicap changes to 6 But if you shoot a several birds above your class average you will loose the appropriate amount of ponts and you could be shooting off 4 the time you shoot, the best thing about the whole apart from sortin out sandbaggers is your class/handicap is controlled after each time you shoot so no more waitin a year or even 6 months to get moved.  Nigel

 

[johnyT]

Andy S said:

GlenPresley said:
For me the whole classification system is set to low, what is the % for AAA now? 86 or87???Not many sporting shoots are won on this nowadays! i would say AAA is 90+ nowadays!

Glen from the CPSA classifications cut offESP AAA =86.6 & above AA = 82.4 - 86.5 A=75.1 - 82.3 B = 67.7 - 75.0C = 67.6 & belowWhich as you suggest is a bit low for AAA it looks like this needs a rethink as well! Andy
Guys - you are both showing a lack of understanding here - the cut offs are not based on arbitary numbers but on percentiles using the adjusted averages.AAA - the top 5% of shooters in the disciplineAA   - the next 10%A     - the next 30%B     - the next 30%C     - the remaining 25%Therefore the cut offs reflect performance and not a "feeling" that everyone is getting higher scores.For details see:  http://www.cpsa.co.uk/classifi.....ion-system I do think that recalculation on the basis of daily scores is a bit overkill but agree it could be more regular - especially given the fact that shooting is so significantly affected by the weather.  I also think that scores should be on a points from top scores basis - however I think that this should be based on an average of the top 3 scores - since there is always somebody who shoots out of his skin. In terms of the golf analogy I think Nigel forgets that there is a system of standard score on the day to factor in weather conditions and difficulty of course set up - and I guess that is what scoring off the delta from top scores would achieve.

 

[Nigel]

I hadn't forgot the SSC (standard scratch score) which is reflected by an average scratch player/shooter scores on the day effects every game/shoot which takes in account the weather, course adjustments (i.e. easier or harder) there is no reason this can't be used in Sporting shooting as it is in golf, I'm suggestin for one minute that the exact golf handicap system should be used in shootin as certain points would need to be tweaked  to make it work properly but believe me it would work with the right brains behind it. I actually think the SSC can be very unfair at times, Why should one player/shooter who personally has a purple day and shoots a personal best score not get his full rights to his cut just because several others have a good day which effects the days SSC which that game/shoot is gauged by ?  the player is playin against the par of the course not what happens to others on the day, the SSC can work for you and against you at different times but I don't personally think it's 100% needed ( maybe that's just my thought's as a few times it cost me cuts to lower my handicap more than it did in my case to help me from goin up) remember golf is all about gettin your handicap down But isn't shootin about gettin as far up the classes as possible  ? Nigel

 

[bonzodogdoodaband]

Always going to be a hard one to sort out.  The lower classes want to hit clays and the better shots want a challenge.  After all, it is sporting so should be a bit of a challenge i think and its what i want out of a shoot personally. It would be good if another system could be found.

 

[Outlaw]

Would it not be better if the CPSA brought ESP in line with FITASC and had an extra class, adjust the %'s that JT has rightly pointed are used, so that there are more AAA,AA and A class shooters, therefore they will have bigger pots to shoot for and the "lower class shooters" will happily put into the pot of their class rather than go birds only. Also Make the Top 3 classes put a bit extra in, so the high gun prize money is better, why should the "lower classes" pay toward something they have no chance of winning? Or failing the extra toward High gun, have side pots like ZZ were the people who have a chance of winning get the pot and its split down the final finishing order? Sorry went off on a tangent about prize money again/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-embarassed.gif

 

[EdSolomons]

*high gun is put in by ground, not taken from lower class entries (or higher ones for that matter!)

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Thoughts before bed.........This is all good chat and some great ideas that could be to put to the NGB to help the sport..............who will then ignore it / them and carry on as usual. That I am afraid ................is life.(Of course for the unbelievers.....you could always write your suggestions to the board........get a holding letter......and then get it kicked into the long grass/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif)Off now for my cocoa (Benedictine flavour of course) and a Havana. Soon be in the land of nod/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-wink.gif sweet dreams Campers/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-kiss.gif

 

[Outlaw]

EdSolomons said:

*high gun is put in by ground, not taken from lower class entries (or higher ones for that matter!)

Cheers for that mate, never been bothered before as I'd never get a sniff at it .