CPSA Discipline Rules

[Fuzrat]

cheers Phil

 

[Salopian]

Sporting is a clay discipline initially designed to simulate Game shooting. It has come a long way since then and I am sure that if we implemented target flight and distance markers for Sporting it would be a choke twiddlers bonanza. Plus of course it would bring a whole new world to Game Shoot agents whose customers would refuse to shoot Pheasants because they hadn't been 'hooped'. Laugh ? I nearly split my sides.

I know a DTL ground where the purists 'hoop' the targets and get the targets to to conform to the distance and height rules, and then a 'committee' member changes them 'because they don't look right'.

 

[Mr Potter]

I succeeded in getting an ESP rule "changed". The nonsense about refs being able to take up to 3 seconds to launch a clay, when it should be instant.

It was agreed that it would be corrected, but I notice it hasn't happened yet. Booklet 7 is the same as it ever was, or at least there's still a peculiar reference to 3 seconds in the list of what constitutes a no bird. With that left in there, it effectively means that the ref can still take 3 seconds. They don't seem to like putting things in black and white, It seems it's better to leave it woolly and vague.

It takes an age and I'm not sure why. :codemafia:

The CPSA chap who sorted it out, Peter, is on here.

Chard, if the wording in the booklet hasn't changed then the rule can't have changed.  If you think it is a poorly worded rule then it's still a poorly worded rule open to different interpretations.. 

The potential of up to a 3 second delay has never bothered me but as a competition should be the same for everyone on any given target and as the rule stands shooter A could get an instant release and shooter B a delay of 3 seconds.  Therefore not fair to all and probably should be scrapped but I can't see that arguing with a referee that the delay was illegal cos some bloke called Peter said so on an internet forum will go down well.

Mr Potter 

 

[pete121]

All rule change(s) that are documented and proposed: once ratified through due process should be published in the next version of Booklet 7, which is an annual process (expected during Q1 2013).

The change proposed by Chard to CPSA Booklet 7 (Version CPSA/B7/2012/01 – 4th May) for CPSA Booklet 7 (Version CPSA/B7/2013/01 - TBA) was:

7.02 Targets will be thrown instantly using non-verbal and non-visible instruction by the Referee after the competitor has clearly called for the target.

7.17.8 The target appears after a delay of more than three seconds from when the competitor called for the target and the referee attempted to throw it instantly.

If approved, the above will only come into effect when the next version of Booklet 7 is officially published.

Under our document control process: we build up a collection of proposed changes to be ratified over the year and publish revised rules based on these at the start of each year, as we don’t want to change rules during the competition season unless something critical requires it.

Pete

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Thanks Pete. :smile:

 

[Jan Powell]

I don't think anyone is suggesting distance markers for Sporting? The distance markers issue relates only to DTL as they're already in place for Skeet.

As I have no interest in shooting Sporting I don't really care how far the targets go!

 

[ips]

Trouble is that regardless of if and when the targets are set the slightest wind change can effect the target before or during a comp. This is partictlarily true for dtl due to the fact that the speed off the arm is so slow that there is not enough energy for the target to punch through. I have shot dtl targets that were hooped but within 30 mins have become virtually un hitable. In am ideal world or rather in an ideal country with propper weather we would all shoot regulation targets every week no mater what ground we were on. This of course will never happen in good old blighty.

 

[Angelfire]

Trouble is that regardless of if and when the targets are set the slightest wind change can effect the target before or during a comp. This is partictlarily true for dtl due to the fact that the speed off the arm is so slow that there is not enough energy for the target to punch through. I have shot dtl targets that were hooped but within 30 mins have become virtually un hitable. In am ideal world or rather in an ideal country with propper weather we would all shoot regulation targets every week no mater what ground we were on. This of course will never happen in good old blighty.

On the money.

Phil*

 

[Mr Potter]

All rule change(s) that are documented and proposed: once ratified through due process should be published in the next version of Booklet 7, which is an annual process (expected during Q1 2013).

The change proposed by Chard to CPSA Booklet 7 (Version CPSA/B7/2012/01 – 4th May) for CPSA Booklet 7 (Version CPSA/B7/2013/01 - TBA) was:

7.02 Targets will be thrown instantly using non-verbal and non-visible instruction by the Referee after the competitor has clearly called for the target.

7.17.8 The target appears after a delay of more than three seconds from when the competitor called for the target and the referee attempted to throw it instantly.

If approved, the above will only come into effect when the next version of Booklet 7 is officially published.

Under our document control process: we build up a collection of proposed changes to be ratified over the year and publish revised rules based on these at the start of each year, as we don’t want to change rules during the competition season unless something critical requires it.

Pete

Pete,

So the proposed rule change hasn't been approved and ratified yet?  What is the due process, I assume it is a committee or sub-committee so  there should be a date in the diary as we're half way through Q1 now.

Am in agreement with this proposed change as it should level the playing field but find the 2nd clause (no bird) at odds with the first,   

7.17.8 The target appears after a delay of more than three seconds from when the competitor called for the target and the referee attempted to throw it instantly

If the ref attempted to throw the target instantly and it doesn't appear for up to 3 seconds then surely that is a technical breakdown (trap or release mechanism fault) and potentially that competitor is disadvantaged.  Surely if the target should be launched instantly there should be no exception especially one caused by a malfunction of some description.  To make the "instant" rule make sense clause 7.17.8 should be dropped and to avoid any further confusion it should be made clear that this applies to the target leaving the trap and not when the shooter first sees the target.

Mr Potter

 

[Chard]

Pete,

So the proposed rule change hasn't been approved and ratified yet?  What is the due process, I assume it is a committee or sub-committee so  there should be a date in the diary as we're half way through Q1 now.

Am in agreement with this proposed change as it should level the playing field but find the 2nd clause (no bird) at odds with the first,   

7.17.8 The target appears after a delay of more than three seconds from when the competitor called for the target and the referee attempted to throw it instantly

If the ref attempted to throw the target instantly and it doesn't appear for up to 3 seconds then surely that is a technical breakdown (trap or release mechanism fault) and potentially that competitor is disadvantaged.  Surely if the target should be launched instantly there should be no exception especially one caused by a malfunction of some description.  To make the "instant" rule make sense clause 7.17.8 should be dropped and to avoid any further confusion it should be made clear that this applies to the target leaving the trap and not when the shooter first sees the target.

Mr Potter

Yes, I was in agreement with a rule that allowed up to 3 seconds for a target to become visible to the shooter, i.e. taking a while to appear from behind a wood or hill, but the rule still reads as if the ref has up to 3 seconds to press the button, which is silly.

 

[Hawkeye]

when did you propose the change?

 

[Will Hewland]

In sporting, especially with radio traps, the signal is unreliable to the trap, so often it takes a couple of presses to make it go. Normally the ref susses it and ends up raising their button above their head to get a clear line that works. I have never had a ref who would not give a no bird if you missed a surprise release form a third press.. Common sense usually prevails..

 

[Chard]

when did you propose the change?

I can't really remember when it all started. Seems ages ago. I would hazard a wild guess at between 6 months and a year. :wacko:

 

[Hawkeye]

It won't have been due to go in front of the committee till now then

 

[Mr Potter]

In sporting, especially with radio traps, the signal is unreliable to the trap, so often it takes a couple of presses to make it go. Normally the ref susses it and ends up raising their button above their head to get a clear line that works. I have never had a ref who would not give a no bird if you missed a surprise release form a third press.. Common sense usually prevails..

Must admit that is the sort of scenario (radio remote signal issues) I had when I posted but that seems to only spotlight the issue, target presentation should be, where ever possible,  the same for each competitor.  There are obviously some things, such as the weather, which are beyond the control of anyone but the targets and in this instance the time of release is within the control of the rule makers.  If it is instant release it should be instant release for all and if, for whatever reason, the clay does not launch on the press of the button it should be a no bird and the ref (or more usually a marker) should call it not the shooter. 

The example above,  I have never had a ref who would not give a no bird if you missed a surprise release form a third press.. Common sense usually prevails

is true but the current rules do not allow for refs to make common sense decisions and tbh if the ref calls a no bird if you missed the bird why should he not call it a no bird if you hit it?  Rules are there to make things black and white, it's either a no bird or it isn't, that's not dependent on whether you hit it or not. 

I was once at a strawbaler that quite clearly had a signs up in the booking on caravan that the maximum cartridge was 28g 7's.  I challenged with the organizer the result of a local, regular shooter who'd been banging away at an extreme range teal with 36 grams bombs.  He admitted he'd used them but his defense was he still hadn't hit the thing so that was OK then!!  The idiot of an organizer accepted this until the weight of public opinion made him change his mind and disqualify the bloke, it was quite funny really it was getting quite heated at times. to this day I'm convinced he gave the bloke a free entry to the next shoot to keep him sweet.  The point of the above ramble though is to explain my thinking on the the fact rules should not be dependent on the outcome, missed that OK it's a no-bird, bit off line or didn't release immediately but you hit it so we'll call it good. 

Think Chard's original point all those months ago was that it was a woolly rule that was open to interpretation and on that basis I think the proposed clause 7.17.8 should be dropped and it should be instant release, any delay and the ref should call it a no bird. 

Mr Potter

 

[Will Hewland]

It is common place that a no bird (slow release or offline) is VERY often given as a hit, if hit, but given again if missed. That is not fair or right of course.. But in reality it keeps the shoot running smoothly and is the same for all over an extended period. Not good practice at a big shoot and fairly annoying if that one clay causes a difference in placings and prize money..

Sorry to sound uncommitted about it.

 

[timps]

I have just witnessed a ref not giving a no bird because of a trap malfunction, it was about 2 weeks ago and was funnily enough against chard. I have also been the victim several times myself, from my experience if you don't take a shot at it then they will give you a no bird but take a shot and miss they don't always unless an experienced ref.

The problem is how the 3 second rule is worded, not taking a shot is the wrong thing to do, but with inexperienced refs it is usually the best option, but should a ref give you a miss you have no recourse.

I think the wording could be the "button should be pressed instantly and should only be pushed once", then the three second rule is fine left as is.

It is the ref feverishly pressing the button until a clay appears that does it for me, as long as the clay appeared within 3 seconds it was not a no bird, the skeet house stand at Catton hall was a prime example of this.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[pete121]

Mr Potter
 

To ensure equity; no new or amended rules come into effect until the next version of the rule booklet in question is officially published.

Due process is via 'change request form': processed through members, discipline sub-committees, international council, the management board, and document control at HQ. This yearly process includes ratification of proposed changes to Booklet 5 (General Rules) and Booklet 7 (Technical Rules), with the aim of publishing as early as possible each year. Please note that the last version of Booklet 7 was published on the 4th of May 2012.

Personally: I think that rule 7.17.8 is required as a definition of ‘No Target’ but that it might perhaps be best worded as “The target is launched after an irregular delay”. Which should also cover any out of sight traps… on towers in the trees

Chard, from memory I believe it was May last year that you proposed the change and as it's a common sense amendment I doubt it will be rejected.

I believe that good progress is being made on the ratification front this year… that said perhaps there may be a few DTL rule proposals holding up the show. Can you tell I only shoot sporting yet!

Pete

 

[Hawkeye]

Pete , you mentioned sporting and DTL rule changes , is my proposal there for National Skeet or has it been lost?

 

[blaser f3]

You should remember that a ref is there to make sure every shooter gets a fair and proper target/ decision (therefore on the shooters side )  unfortunately some refs seem to think the shooter is their opposition !!!