DT11 steel shot proof?

[Jonny English]

With all the noise about non toxic being on the agenda, I thought I would have a look at the stamps on my DT11 when I was cleaning it yesterday. To my surprise I couldn't find a fleur de lys stamp. Has anyone else got a DT11 that either is or isn't proofed for HP steel, or am I looking in the wrong place?

 

[TK421]

This is mine taken from DT11 Sporting 2015

have they moved the proof marks to a different spot? Looks like you have a lot less proofing marks ? What variant of DT11 is it?

 

[Jonny English]

This is mine taken from DT11 Sporting 2015

have they moved the proof marks to a different spot? Looks like you have a lot less proofing marks ? What variant of DT11 is it?

View attachment 8721

Mine is the DT11L sporter.

Looking at your stamps you have lighter barrels than mine as well as mine are 1.540 in 32" compared to yours at 1.490, unless yours is 30"?

 

[Luke_(NL)]

I'll have a look at mine when I get home and post a pic. What I find surprising is that the CS coded DT11 is of a later date (2017, I reckon) than the CN Code (2015). The older gun has the FdL, but the newer gun doesn't....   That's a bit surprising, but both guns are new enough for the Italians to be producing steel-eating DT's.  

 

[jasper]

I'll check my two later and post some thoughts. 

 

[jasper]

Hi all

Ok so both my dt11 have the fleur de lys. Both 2015 32" 3" chambers. 

And so this my take on it. Don't shoot me down. Happy to discuss/debate. (stick with me). 

The mandatory proof for shotguns is 850bar. (Though some say 920) As I understand it you can use "standard steel" through any gun with this proof.(CIP N).

Most modern  Beretta are proofed to 1200bar. (CIP S). This is also known as (3") magnum proof(lead). (still with?).

  As I understand "HP steel"(fleur de lys) proof is for extreme range/loads and is 1320bar and is intended for 3 1/2 inch chambers.(of course there are exceptions).

Remember steel is less dense than lead and therefore requires more physical space than lead for a given load . At this point Beretta (and most sensible folk) can see that a proof of 1320 bar is not worthwhile on 3" chambers as the loads that fit in a 3" cartridge do not require the higher proof pressure. Hence no fleur on your dt11 Jonny? There is also some question over the cartridge makers making a 1320bar  cartridge for 3" Chambers. Its basically redundant in this chamber length.  (still here?)

So after all this the 1320bar proof is basically pointless on a 3" chambered gun. And so the gun makers cut out some expense by not bothering with the HP steel proof.  And of course if you really need it Beretta and others will happily sell you a 3 1/2 inch chambered gun with a fleur and 1320 bar.

There maybe be some development with faster speeds (and more recoil) to move into the CIP S 1200bar proof area. (standard+?)(3" chambers)

Conclusion. We will all be taking much much more notice of the boxes which contain our cartridges to check the max pressures. 

Jasper

 

[Jonny English]

Hi all

Ok so both my dt11 have the fleur de lys. Both 2015 32" 3" chambers. 

And so this my take on it. Don't shoot me down. Happy to discuss/debate. (stick with me). 

The mandatory proof for shotguns is 850bar. (Though some say 920) As I understand it you can use "standard steel" through any gun with this proof.(CIP N).

Most modern  Beretta are proofed to 1200bar. (CIP S). This is also known as (3") magnum proof(lead). (still with?).

  As I understand "HP steel"(fleur de lys) proof is for extreme range/loads and is 1320bar and is intended for 3 1/2 inch chambers.(of course there are exceptions).

Remember steel is less dense than lead and therefore requires more physical space than lead for a given load . At this point Beretta (and most sensible folk) can see that a proof of 1320 bar is not worthwhile on 3" chambers as the loads that fit in a 3" cartridge do not require the higher proof pressure. Hence no fleur on your dt11 Jonny? There is also some question over the cartridge makers making a 1320bar  cartridge for 3" Chambers. Its basically redundant in this chamber length.  (still here?)

So after all this the 1320bar proof is basically pointless on a 3" chambered gun. And so the gun makers cut out some expense by not bothering with the HP steel proof.  And of course if you really need it Beretta and others will happily sell you a 3 1/2 inch chambered gun with a fleur and 1320 bar.

There maybe be some development with faster speeds (and more recoil) to move into the CIP S 1200bar proof area. (standard+?)

Conclusion. We will all be taking much much more notice of the boxes which contain our cartridges to check the max pressures. 

Jasper

Seems a pretty fair assessment of the situation. Could also depend on where they thought the market for each gun would be, and if it would be required. Like you say, they won't pay for the HP steel proof test if they think it's an unnecessary cost.

I have been thinking along the lines of that if the time ever arises that I need it to be FdL stamped, the gun is more than likely made to the same standards of the other DT11's that have passed the highest proof and I can always get my local gunsmith to submit it for the FdL proof. There is always the risk of catastrophic failure, so would obviously take advice of the gunsmith before taking the risk. Hopefully it may never be a problem, only stumbling block could be trade in price in the future if its not FdL.

 

[Charliedog]

Not sure if this helps, i dont really understand it to be fair

 

[Luke_(NL)]

I'll have a look at mine when I get home and post a pic. What I find surprising is that the CS coded DT11 is of a later date (2017, I reckon) than the CN Code (2015). The older gun has the FdL, but the newer gun doesn't....   That's a bit surprising, but both guns are new enough for the Italians to be producing steel-eating DT's.  

So I had a look… and age wise, my DT11 (the black version, carbon and all) is right in the middle of both guns depicted, with a date code CP. It has both the CIP S stamp and the CIP FdL.

Still at a loss as to why a newer gun wouldn’t have the FdL. Cost reduction on the proofing doesn’t sound right: It’s their flagship gun, and the L version perhaps more so. All DT11’s are advertised as sporting the “Steelium Pro” barrels and all the other marketing schwag. If it’s the best, why not proof it to the highest standard? They do and did for other DT11’s. Given that it does have the CIP S stamp, it was at the proofing station and got proofed for superior steel. The extra expense of having it proofed to CIP FdL wouldn’t be too serious from there on in, especially not if the batches are large enough. 

Interestingly, my barrels are 30” and the weight as stamped into them is 1.420 KG. Probably because of the carbon fibre rib.  Also, they state “Beretta USA, Ackron” as opposed to the “Gardone, Italy” I’ve seen. 

 

[TK421]

The plot thickens …

personally if it were me and my gun I’d call/email GMK and ask them why.
 

Think I’m right in saying that beretta can/do also proof their own barrels right? 

 

[jasper]

Well tk there is a branch of the Italian proof house within the Beretta factory I think. So strictly speaking they don't proof their own barrels. 

Luke. The cost reduction is only one part of my thinking. The other was that the Fleur proof is basically pointless in a 3" gun. 

Anyhow are we just talking dt11 or across the Beretta range . In which case any cost saving would be significant. 

Would be interesting to know what the "lesser" guns are proofed at now?.....

Jasper. 

 

[TK421]

Sorry, and you’re right. I meant  proof barrels on site at beretta. 
 

would be interested in seeing if other barrels across the Beretta range have the FDL as well? Even other brands like browning. I’ll check at my next shoot. 

 

[tiptop]

As for other guns in the Beretta range, my 694 has 3" chambers and the fdl proof marks. Note the date stamp now has the year of manufacture.

 

[Paul120]

Are both barrels sporting barrels with 3" chambers and multi choked?

As I understand it. 

Fixed choke trap barrels with 3/4 & Full won't generally be steel proofed.Also Trap barrels with have 70mm (2 3/4") chambers. They  are not very likely be used for Geese at 60 yards so never likely to see a HP load. 70mm chambers  are said to have better performance with 70mm cartridges using standard loads. 

 

[Luke_(NL)]

Are both barrels sporting barrels with 3" chambers and multi choked?

Mine are. 

Luke. The cost reduction is only one part of my thinking. The other was that the Fleur proof is basically pointless in a 3" gun. 

Anyhow are we just talking dt11 or across the Beretta range . In which case any cost saving would be significant. 

My 692 (also black edition) also has both CIP S and CIP FdL stamp...

Note the date stamp now has the year of manufacture.

Given that we still have roughly 79 years to go in this century, that makes more sense than date codes that I have to look up every single time I'm trying to figure them out  

 

[tpd1309]

32 inch black edition , no idea what year..

 

[Luke_(NL)]

32 inch black edition , no idea what year..

The letters CP in the small rectangle would indicate that it’s built in 2016. Same as mine, and also stamped with both the CIP S and CIP FdL. Surprising to see that with two inches of extra barrel length your barrels weigh only 40 grams more than mine.   

 

[hofk]

As I see it most guns with 3/4 - full choke can't have HP steel, 1/2 choke being the maximum you should use.

My DT11 2015 32" sporter 3" chamber has the FDL stamp, but only the chokes up to 1/2 are marked for steel use.

 

[jasper]

Just seen 2020 dt11 with the fdl stamp. 32"sporter.