DTL Shooter shot in France

[Jeremy Baker]

I read a DTL shooter was shot by the gun of the shooter to his left. 

It sounds like the shot man will be ok but it must be a near point blank injury. 

Best wishes to him. 

The Ground has now banned the use of Autos for DTL shooting and is requiring all customers to have full FFBT licences. 

Discuss. 

 

[Geordieboy]

The problem with Autos, is that if not handled properly, the barrels are always in line with the action.  I.E., loaded or unloaded, the pin is inline with the barrel.  An over & Under, you can clearly see the action is broken and is not in a position to fire unless closed.

All of this is down to the correct handling of the gun however.

I've shot Compaq and seen an amateur raise his barrels whilst loading the gun and the ensuing 'Clank' while the action loads the shell is definitively off-putting!

 

[Hamster]

Even without knowing the full accurate details of this incident I will guarantee it has nothing to do with "auto's" and everything to do with their incorrect use/handling. 

 

[MartynB]

If you look at it in the cold light of day , the only way  that an accidental discharge can harm anyone is if the muzzle direction is not controlled by the shooter .  So in the final analysis this is not a “   semi -auto “ issue . OK , they have banned the use , but this would not stop the same type of incident if a double barrelled gun had accidentally discharged ( which of course they can do ) . 

There are only two directions that a  gun muzzle is “safe “ when an action is closed , or is being closed and those are,  pointing at the ground or pointing at the sky .   Anything in between has the possibility of an incident with varying consequences . 

 It’s a lack of training / awareness / complacency ( take your pick ) and poor operating procedures and reviews of capability that  kill people 

 

[ips]

If you look at it in the cold light of day , the only way  that an accidental discharge can harm anyone is if the muzzle direction is not controlled by the shooter .  So in the final analysis this is not a “   semi -auto “ issue . OK , they have banned the use , but this would not stop the same type of incident if a double barrelled gun had accidentally discharged ( which of course they can do ) . 

There are only two directions that a  gun muzzle is “safe “ when an action is closed , or is being closed and those are,  pointing at the ground or pointing at the sky .   Anything in between has the possibility of an incident with varying consequences . 

 It’s a lack of training / awareness / complacency ( take your pick ) and poor operating procedures and reviews of capability that  kill people 

The only thing i would add is that imo the only safe direction for the muzzle of a closed gun (or auto / pump) is to the sky, ground has feet and in the case of out in the field dogs...

 

[ips]

I have seen muzzles of an over under pointed down the line of guns on a trap layout, i have no idea how anyone can be so irresponsible. There is no excuse for poor muzzle awareness / gun handling . As has bern pointed out poor gun handling is exactly that no matter what type of gun however i do believe that given the nature of a semi or pump (as in you cannot break it and prove its safety visually) they require considerably more care and thought. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

I read a DTL shooter was shot by the gun of the shooter to his left. 

It sounds like the shot man will be ok but it must be a near point blank injury. 

Best wishes to him. 

The Ground has now banned the use of Autos for DTL shooting and is requiring all customers to have full FFBT licences. 

Discuss. 

To be honest? I am not surprised ! The problem for me at least is that too many grounds allow shooting by people who have no current license, not being in anyway discriminatory, which is a particular problem with gypsies. These people come along to clubs  and because a lot of them are constantly on the move they have no permanent address.They turn up at clubs without cartridges and try to buy them for cash many clubs give in and let them shoot to avoid hassles. The semi auto is their favourite gun, cheap and cheerful and borrowed from another shooter who uses it for hunting. I have even seen two shooters using the same gun in a line! Our club will not let anybody shoot without a current license... but you can buy a day ticket I believe ??  No idea which club this happened at  but as said not surprised there are a great many very small clubs in France and some very questionable gun handling goes on. On the other hand normally it is a hunter shooting another hunter in a chasse blasting frenzy where shooters are dotted all over the place, at the side of the road in the depth of a wooded area start blasting away with an assortment of heavy calibre weapons... you name it!

 

[Nimbusgb]

http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/536084/article/2019-02-11/il-blesse-un-ami-avec-une-arme-feu-au-stand-de-ball-trap

https://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/hauts-de-france/nord-0/cambrai/sains-marquion-homme-touche-arme-feu-stand-ball-trap-1622067.html

Interesting that they have surveillance cctv on the ranges.

Both articles mention the gun discharging when 'being opened' but its google translate so it could mean 'being unloaded' 

A quote from the second article "There is more fear than harm, but it's funny anyway!" Hilarious I'm sure!

 

[Lord v]

I do believe that given the nature of a semi or pump (as in you cannot break it and prove its safety visually) they require considerably more care and thought.  

WRT to the first bit - huge chunks of highly coloured plastic are available to put in the breach of a pump action or auto that stops the bolt closing and getting anywhere near a cartridge. Easily as safe as a broken OU or SxS. Shoot, insert plug, step away from stand. easy peasy.

To really set the cat amongst the pigeons I feel far safer seeing a flagged or broken gun than one in a slip being waved around.....

The second bit. Muzzle awareness is mandatory on any gun. Should never be relaxed whatever the type of gun.  

 

[Jan Powell]

Whilst I don't know the facts and don't wish to jump to conclusions, I must say i'm not suprised. Semi-auto's on trap line have a fundmental problem, they require the careful manipulation of a loaded gun between targets.

Picture the scene...

Competitor has two shells loaded (as DTL is a two shot discipline). They succesfully shoot the target with the first shot then have to wait for the squad to rotate back to them, all the time stood with a loaded gun. To make matters worse, before shooting again they have to rotate the gun, find and load another shell, then rotate it back again, at all times keeping the gun down range and their finger away from the trigger. That's not too difficult if it's done once or twice but after 50+ targets the gun gets heavy and fine motor skills are lost. Add to that the possibility of inclement weather, pressure of competition, a distraction from elsewhere and it adds up to the potential for an accident.

Of course any mishandled gun poses a danger but for semi-auto's the risk's undeniably much greater. For what it's worth, for two shot trap disciplines, I feel it's too great. Thankfully, they're very rarely seen in competition.

It'll be interesting to see what comes of this. There's plenty that would like to see the use of semi-auto's prohibited at trap events and this mishap may just tip the balance.

 

[Mike]

On the odd occasion I shot trap with an auto, when changing pegs I always unloaded the gun before moving to another peg it's not rocket science to keep things safe.

 

[westley]

All I would say is, that in 17 years of running a shooting ground and having witnessed MANY accidental discharges (thankfully ALL down range) NONE have ever involved a semi auto shotgun. I myself, shot a Remmie Trap auto for a great many years, all of which were without incident. Like all Trap shooters, I adopted a disciplined and safe routine, which was strictly adhered to.

Next time you are waiting to shoot, be it at ANY clay discipline, just watch for the number of people using break open guns, who leave their finger INSIDE the trigger guard when opening and closing a gun  !   It is almost impossible to load a semi auto with your trigger finger still inside the guard.