FSB / Nick Penn - Shooting both eyes open.

[Will Hewland]

Don't see why you are all getting so het up. Why not go and have a lesson and then ask for your money back as he offers. Some things work for some people and others not. The fact is that the brain is far more capable than we give it credit for. Who knows he may be right! If you are happy shooting one eye or one eye slightly closed then this is obviously not for you. But if you are reaching the point of giving up then MAYBE it is for you.

 No relationship to the programme, just my opinion...

Both eyes open is good advice and should be tried hard by everybody before taking plan B. He kind of infers that he's the first bloke to offer that advice..

It's a load of the other rubbish he spouts as "common sense" or fact that rankles. That and his dangerous practices. 

 

[EdLyons]

The part where he says that a right handed left eye dominant shooter may miss a high driven bird because as they raise the gun up higher "the body tightens and pulls to the left" is just such abject hogwash it would be funny if he wasn't seriously selling this advice to paying clients...

 

[wylye]

Well he's probably not making as much money as you but he appears to be reasonably dressed and healthy so somethings working!!

The stuff he's preaching is no worse than some of the "professional" instructors out there taking a lot of money from innocent newcomers to our sport. Some of them would make your hair curl with the crap they call instruction. Most of them are trying really hard to get the customer to hit the clay at any cost, which is hardly teaching them to shoot. "Close one eye, shoot to the left of it, shoot to the right of it, close the other eye". Criminal really.

 

[EdLyons]

Perhaps the video has been edited in an unflattering way, I'll concede that. 

However, giving a student a "method" to shoot a ten yard incomer and suggesting they miss due to spinal drag, whilst also indicating the likes of Dave Carrie and Allan Warren just guess where they're shooting is also giving me a perm to use your trichological allegory...

 

[Hamster]

Having watched it all the way through it's clear we have a case of a little knowledge and (no doubt skill) is indeed a dangerous thing. As many know I shoot both eyes open off the right shoulder despite a strong left master eye and the knowledge being shared is utter garbage. It might work on gimme targets but never ever translate to an actual method. I know of some very good shooters who can mince hard targets off the hip but that proves nothing other than hand and eye co-ordination is critical. 

Also worth sharing is the utter sh*te being spouted further along the vid where clear and unmistakable reference is made to Iranian terrorists kidnapping Qattar hunting royal family in Iran and billion dollar ransom changing hands etc. I actually had to google this as it seems to have skipped the attention of the Sun and Daily Mail  .

It turns out that "Royals"   (ffs do they believe that themselves ?) were kidnapped in IRAQ by Iraqi "friendly rebels" the West loves so much and monies were paid to release the hard working hunting party, the msm 's standard way of tarnishing by association is to constantly repeat sh*t news with things like Iranian backed Shia or insurgents, in reality this would have at best meant Iranians had brokered a release without harm because they have a working relationship with Qatar. 

The border region between Iran and Iraq is watched by armed drones 24/7 and they frequently incinerate Alqaeda/Daesh/Isis so anyone who thinks they are on the side of said vermin is indeed a cretinous moron. Well done Fieldsports Britain, heartily recommend sticking to your day job. 

 

[Doug Pinnegar]

Point 5, about right shouldered shooters left arms doing 85% of the work. Is that garbage as well? 

 

[Westward]

As Will says, much of what Penn spouts is gibberish, but there is a degree of underlying truth. He's picked up on something scientifically real and verifiable but he clearly doesn't know much about it and, as is common enough with the self important types, he fills in the gaps in his knowledge with fanciful made up theories which he then delivers as fact.

He simply proves the old adage that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Point 5, about right shouldered shooters left arms doing 85% of the work. Is that garbage as well? 

Dunno Doug but maybe it'd make a good topic in it's own right.

 

[Hamster]

Point 5, about right shouldered shooters left arms doing 85% of the work. Is that garbage as well? 

I don't know how you could even quantify such a thing or place such a precise value on it !! After almost 35 years of shooting shot guns I couldn't tell you what proportion to allocate to which arm/hip/wrist/back/neck if my life depended on it. He's deluded but in a nice way meaning he's prolly self aware of his delusion because I for one had not heard of him before so making a living off newbies (who will in good time come to see sense and either receive proper advice or self analyse/correct) is his biggest mischief. 

 

[Salopian]

Wylye,

 I think your comments need to be clarified and the distinction made between , corporate instruction and individual instruction.

An instructor should endeavour to teach a suitable , repeatable method that will ensure the pupil , understands the correct method and approach to each target and during the course of the lesson gains enough knowledge to be able to successfully shoot .

Corporate instruction is wholly about the customer having enjoyment and success.

 

[wylye]

Really? You do? Oh dear.

 

[ips]

seems to me the gentleman is trying to advocate the "think of nothing but the target and let it happen naturally" technique, which I fully buy into. However too much elaboration in an attempt to justify it. Its better to keep it simplistic.

gun handling was truly terrible though and should have been edited out.

no idea about the eye dominance aspect as I have a strong master eye so have no experience with which to use to form an opinion.

the body pulling to one side on a driven sounds feasible to me but again I haven't experienced it myself.

I think coaches and teachers all try and put there own slant on things and by doing so "some" can end up over analyzing it which is the very thing that Imo is a fundamental fault in most peoples shooting. I have heard (and indeed said myself) many folk say "i shot brilliant but have no idea how i did it" . This is shooting at its best.

anyway the bloke is giving a money back guarantee and Mr gmk seems happy with him

did i say the gun handling was awful and i mean awful.

 

[Salopian]

I think it is an utter disgrace that this was given any air time at all without research being done as to the viability of what Nick Penn theorises and the glaring safety violations.

Even more sadly we have a very respected Trade member endorsing his teachings and subjecting his daughter to unsafe practices.

 

[Hamster]

I think it is an utter disgrace that this was given any air time at all without research being done as to the viability of what Nick Penn theorises and the glaring safety violations.

Even more sadly we have a very respected Trade member endorsing his teachings and subjecting his daughter to unsafe practices.

Not to mention they spout sh*t about the Middle East.

 

[chippy]

Point 5, about right shouldered shooters left arms doing 85% of the work. Is that garbage as well? 

i checked mine yesterday and its only 82%

 

[EdSolomons]

Well... I watched this with Mr Lyons and was truly gob smacked at almost all of it, soon as I get through rest of my emails I will try and post an honest reply, looked like a bag of ar54holes to me though.

 

[EdSolomons]

Well, here goes...

i thought, in an uncharacteristic move, that I'd be better keeping my gob shut and coming back later with a more balanced, less harsh view. Well it's 11.15pm and I'm afraid it all still sounds like a load of tosh to me. 

Im not into knocking others in the same profession as I don't think it's a great reflection on myself however I have so many gripes with this I feel it would be worse not to call it out to at least balance the argument of "there is no master eye" esque rubbish.

in no particular order here are my takes on it.

master eye- this has a huge impact on gun fit, sight pictures and methodology, and I have several dozen customers I can call up and use as real life examples here, not just people who have been shooting 5 minutes who I'm trying to get to hit a 15 yard driven bird. A strongly cross dominant shooter will be in the ball park of 18" left at 25yards, irrespective of target presentation so that takes out this massive spinal drag (I love that band) that was so massively blown out of proportion in the video. If it is a simple case of the gun pulling left on high driven but not other targets this could be a factor- I have a customer with limited movement in his back and this is indeed noticeable on high driven but he is an exceptional case. The fact is there are plenty of cross dominant shooters (to varying degrees) who will equally miss straight incomers at head height where the spine is totally neutral.

the concept of your brain being able to magically calculate lead... in calling bullshi7 on that too I'm afraid. And no, the catching a ball analogy doesn't hold water here so refrain from digging that up. If the above was the case, I could hand any one of my mates a gun, and with no instruction have them shoot a 40 yard crosser. We all know this isn't going to happen. You can get away with this on corporate gimme targets like the low driven seen in the film however I can probably get people to hit these from the hip within a short space of time- it doesn't mean however that this is a viable method for long term success.

a list of clients who have progressed to a decent level would be interesting. Testimonials from newbies are great but in reality anyone within reason can get them breaking targets by any means at the stage they are at, and progress is seemingly easy to come by as there is so much low hanging fruit. Not expecting world champions but a list of say 50 people who use this method and have achieved for example A class or above would be enlightening, maybe I'm wrong.

i realise the video may have not been cut sympathetically but this is why you sign media off- to make sure you don't get Miss quoted and look like a prawn.

i think there is plenty more to dig at but it's late, it's been a long weekend and I have an early start coaching tomorrow as per!

pick the bones out of that

 

[Will Hewland]

Well, here goes...

i thought, in an uncharacteristic move, that I'd be better keeping my gob shut and coming back later with a more balanced, less harsh view. Well it's 11.15pm and I'm afraid it all still sounds like a load of tosh to me. 

Im not into knocking others in the same profession as I don't think it's a great reflection on myself however I have so many gripes with this I feel it would be worse not to call it out to at least balance the argument of "there is no master eye" esque rubbish.

in no particular order here are my takes on it.

master eye- this has a huge impact on gun fit, sight pictures and methodology, and I have several dozen customers I can call up and use as real life examples here, not just people who have been shooting 5 minutes who I'm trying to get to hit a 15 yard driven bird. A strongly cross dominant shooter will be in the ball park of 18" left at 25yards, irrespective of target presentation so that takes out this massive spinal drag (I love that band) that was so massively blown out of proportion in the video. If it is a simple case of the gun pulling left on high driven but not other targets this could be a factor- I have a customer with limited movement in his back and this is indeed noticeable on high driven but he is an exceptional case. The fact is there are plenty of cross dominant shooters (to varying degrees) who will equally miss straight incomers at head height where the spine is totally neutral.

the concept of your brain being able to magically calculate lead... in calling bullshi7 on that too I'm afraid. And no, the catching a ball analogy doesn't hold water here so refrain from digging that up. If the above was the case, I could hand any one of my mates a gun, and with no instruction have them shoot a 40 yard crosser. We all know this isn't going to happen. You can get away with this on corporate gimme targets like the low driven seen in the film however I can probably get people to hit these from the hip within a short space of time- it doesn't mean however that this is a viable method for long term success.

a list of clients who have progressed to a decent level would be interesting. Testimonials from newbies are great but in reality anyone within reason can get them breaking targets by any means at the stage they are at, and progress is seemingly easy to come by as there is so much low hanging fruit. Not expecting world champions but a list of say 50 people who use this method and have achieved for example A class or above would be enlightening, maybe I'm wrong.

i realise the video may have not been cut sympathetically but this is why you sign media off- to make sure you don't get Miss quoted and look like a prawn.

i think there is plenty more to dig at but it's late, it's been a long weekend and I have an early start coaching tomorrow as per!

pick the bones out of that

Oh F*ck. Are you now telling me that I won't never ever miss if it looks right? Solomons, you have pissed on my chips. 

 

[EdSolomons]

£200 please

 

[Hamster]

I hereby suggest nay demand that "spinal drag" become a thing in the urban English dictionary :

Spinal Drag - is a common English term used to communicate feelings of smelling bullsh*t in a sentence or subject as a whole, first used within the shooting community at the turn of the century it has now become widespread throughout the West as well as large parts of the near as well as far East where it is pronounced Splag for short. 

Give it time gents, give it time.  :lol: B) :lol:

 

[Sian]

I hereby suggest nay demand that "spinal drag" become a thing in the urban English dictionary :

Spinal Drag - is a common English term used to communicate feelings of smelling bullsh*t in a sentence or subject as a whole, first used within the shooting community at the turn of the century it has now become widespread throughout the West as well as large parts of the near as well as far East where it is pronounced Splag for short. 

Give it time gents, give it time.  :lol: B) :lol:

Sounds like a band - oh I know I am thinking of Spinal Tap .