Gil & Vicki

[timps]

Call me cynical but I have a fairly good idea who the op is and why he asked the question.

Shotguncoach on shotgunworld often has a run in with Gil on that forum, shotguncoach is the inventor of maze clays, orangeclay on PW also is the inventor of maze clays and asked the same question on there. Someone pointed him to this forum when he asked the question and now we have targetchip on here.

Coincidence maybe, but I figure it has something to do with the post Gil Ash videos on shotgunworld forum

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Hmmmmm yes

+1

 

[Salopian]

Hmmmmmm! Maybe.

 But still apart from Nicky T no one has been forthcoming to say how good or bad the clinic was!

It would be interesting to know what the attendance was and the level of ability of the candidates.

'C' class shooters wishing to improve or 'A' class ? 

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Sssssssssshhhh

Lets not tell them our names Pikes

 

[targetchip]

Gentlemen,

my apologies for putting up a storm here. I am the maze clays guy, Bill Erdoss a shotgun coach that most of the time torture the English language to express his opinions.

Sorry for that, but I do my best!  I like to exchange opinions, so I decided to sign up on this forum too.

Why Gil and Vicky? I studied what they teach and I don't agree with many of their points of views. They go unchallenged in USA and as a result, they come up with things that many here , I think, won't agree.

I was curious about their professionalism showed in that clinic.

Thank you!

 

[Will Hewland]

Gentlemen, my apologies for putting up a storm here. I am the maze clays guy, Bill Erdoss a shotgun coach that most of the time torture the English language to express his opinions. Sorry for that, but I do my best!  I like to exchange opinions, so I decided to sign up on this forum too. Why Gil and Vicky? I studied what they teach and I don't agree with many of their points of views. They go unchallenged in USA and as a result, they come up with things that many here , I think, won't agree. I was curious about their professionalism showed in that clinic. Thank you!

Hi

(You will find that there are ladies and gentlemen on here. And some others..)

I for one have always felt that if only Gils certainty of his ideas were matched by the sense they make, he would be a world beater. He has definitely said some stuff that I personally feel is just plain wrong. I'm no coach, but when someone says something that you feel you have proved to yourself not to be the case, it's hard to accept of course. Is he all hat and no cattle? (To borrow a Texas term..).

So, a bit like asking a friend who has been to see a movie, I think we would all like to know how it was? Maybe not reveal the plot, but at least give it marks out of 10.

 

[Nicky T]

It would be interesting to know what the attendance was and the level of ability of the candidates.

'C' class shooters wishing to improve or 'A' class ?

I only went to one of the days so do not know the overall attendance; on the day I was there it was about 10. Ability wise it was very varied; in the group that I shot with there was an AA and another A class; in the other group it was a mixture of B/C and non-CPSA.

 

[Nicky T]

I was curious about their professionalism showed in that clinic

Their professionalism was, in my opinion, first class. Very willing to go over their techniques in a variety of different ways to ensure that everyone understood what they were looking at and/or being asked to do. They were polite and courteous throughout.

More thoughts of the day here:

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[EdLyons]

Morning all! 

I think Matt has a write up with some pictures which he may add to this? Nicky T has written a great blog about the event.

As background, I met Gil and Vicki at a SportsVision conference in Vegas and have hopefully been of some use giving a different perspective to how our visual system works in relation to shooting.

I was asked by Gil and Vicki to find a venue suitable for their first foray over here and used Adam's Grange Farm back in September. As expected, Grange offered everything that was required and more, they even sorted out three days of glorious September sun!

The clinic was attended by AA through to C class shooters as well as a couple of guys who were solely game shots. Only two are members of the forum but all have indicated they would like to rebook should an event take place this year.

Their USP (in my opinion at least) is helping cross-dominant shooters to shoot both eyes open. By the end of the course, all four "eye-shutters" were smashing stuff all over the place.

If wanted, and the delegates are happy, I can post some of their feedback emails.

I'm certainly not saying a "one-size fits all" approach is correct, and only by reading the books and meeting them in person, I found that isn't their modus operandi either, although it can sometimes come across that way.

As for being unchallenged in the USA, i'm unsure which acronym you're using but in the States they have been up against constant negativity (much like on here) but are slowly winning some critics over.

Their system has now been accepted for ALL tutorials via Hunter Education….so they must be doing something right!

BUT, to flip it around, I'm sure that if someone spent £450 on a day With Ed Solomons or Carl  Bloxham, they would also come away with feelings of accomplishment and have improved their shooting. Everyone has their methods.

Now, I'm curious as to why YOU'RE curious about someone's professionalism at a course you didn't attend? Thin ice perhaps?

Ed

 

[targetchip]

Ed, thank you for your comment. I would like to hear other comments as well, if is possible.!

 

[timps]

The trouble with some of the American coaches is they have gone down the unique ‘patented’ method route for shooting clays. That is to say you can only learn this brilliant method by only going to them or buying their books/videos.

This has spilled over onto the shotgunworld forum where several of the coaches bicker and rubbish rivals methods while promoting their own unique method over all other types. Diminishing lead, unit lead, pull away, swing through, maintained lead and **insert unique flavour of the month method here**. One method to rule them all and only that one method should be used for every target.

Personally a prospective client looking to see whether a coach knows what he/she is doing or value for money is one thing, but a current coach looking to score brownie points over another is a different matter.

Concentrate on how good a coach you are, what you offer and leave other coaches to do likewise rather getting into worrying about them.

There will always people that are open to new ideas and will go out and seek the likes of Gil no matter what is written about them by others.

Personally I would not go to one of their seminars but then I wouldn’t go to anyone’s seminar. If you found 1 person who didn’t like it what would it prove?

There would be 10 that come forward and say they did.

I am sure if any coach put their methods forward for scrutiny someone somewhere would argue on the methodology.

 

[timps]

Oh I would just like to add if you would like to know more about the Timps reverse lead patented technique please PM for paypal details.

Its got me from several years in A class to B class in sporting this year but D class to B class in FITASC ......

 

[Salopian]

The only reason I asked was purely from a professional and patriotic point of view. It was not to criticise or pick fault.

In my mind the USA is a long way behind the UK in shooting and coaching ability, but they are catching us very fast.

For instance it is not unusual for an ordinary American clayshooter to train ready for a competition the week before by shooting 500 shells a day for possibly four days prior to the event, at the ground where the competition is being held.

Another instance is Wendell Cherry an American professional who earns a living winning competitions and coaching is actually coached by John Woolley a Brit.

Doug Vine, Mick Howells, Gary Phillips and many more now live and coach in the USA and make a very good living doing it.

Gil & Vicki saw a market and filled the gap.

 

[Salopian]

Timps, Post 30 was very good, true and to the point.

Bill, I hope you are reading this, do us all a favour, stop trying to cause trouble on shotgunworld , and when you say you know ALL the answers , please give us the benefit of your vast knowledge and explain rather than cause another argument and avoid answering the question. You have already caused Peter Blakeley to leave America and move to Scotland.

 

[targetchip]

timps. I got you, but is not what you believe it is.

The meaning of a forum is to debate issues and help people with less experience to understand those issues and make them to take a conclusion by themselves..

There are a lot of people selling bad things that many are not aware of and others buying  them without hesitation.

My philosophy is that , if you are exposing yourself publicly you should defend your concepts and methods, publicly as well.

If your arguments can support your theory is a plus for you and for your credibility if not , the public opinion should give you the verdict.

Am I Robin Hood, no, but my professional duty is not  let to pass aberrations that take money out of the pocket of a poor ignorant.

There is no  personal attack involved, which would dilute the entire debate, only objective arguments pro or against.

Once again, if you come out publicly, better be ready  to be challenged, no matter what's your name or other considerations..

Just me.

 

[Mick Shaw]

Gentlemen,

my apologies for putting up a storm here. I am the maze clays guy, Bill Erdoss a shotgun coach that most of the time torture the English language to express his opinions.

Sorry for that, but I do my best! 

Hi Bill

What nationality are you ?

 

[timps]

timps. I got you, but is not what you believe it is.

The meaning of a forum is to debate issues and help people with less experience to understand those issues and make them to take a conclusion by themselves..

There are a lot of people selling bad things that many are not aware of and others buying  them without hesitation.

My philosophy is that , if you are exposing yourself publicly you should defend your concepts and methods, publicly as well.

If your arguments can support your theory is a plus for you and for your credibility if not , the public opinion should give you the verdict.

Am I Robin Hood, no, but my professional duty is not  let to pass aberrations that take money out of the pocket of a poor ignorant.

There is no  personal attack involved, which would dilute the entire debate, only objective arguments pro or against.

Once again, if you come out publicly, better be ready  to be challenged, no matter what's your name or other considerations..

Just me.

 
But if  the public opinion comes back that it was a  good seminar would it change your mind?
 
Surely that is the true indication of its worth.
 
The problem with clay sporting is there are many ways to hit a clay, there are some definite do’s and dont’s but then there is a whole host of a grey areas which work for some and not for others. Preferred methods, set up and techniques are not the same for everybody, plenty of major shoots have been won by people with different techniques.
 
With this in mind there is going to be a plethora of different opinions, some professionals disagree with your opinions on shotgunworld so does this diminish your coaching ability and put you in the same light as those you wish to challenge?
 
I am all for those who challenge, but the person challenging must also stand scrutiny as well for it to have any credibility. You don’t always answer technical questions that are directed at you on the forum which using your last post as reference would also paint you in a bad light.
 
I don’t always agree with what some ‘internet’ coaches say as it doesn’t work for me, but I don’t then go out and say it cannot work at all, for some it does just not me.
 
But going back to my original post if you get 10 who liked the seminar and 4 who didn’t what does it prove?
It proves like I said what works for some may not for others, you would have to get 14 who didn’t like it for them to be snake oil salesmen.
 
Value for money is a different question but that is very subjective to the individual. 

 

[longmynd]

I attended both coaching days with Gil and Vicky. As a ‘re-started’ shooter after a 30 year gap, I came across details of the OSP method they teach, thought it looked interesting (as a left handed right eye dominant shooter I was looking for something which enabled me to do without the dot on my glasses). The first time I tried it on some skeet targets I was able to hit clays I’d struggled with before. I started to self-train on it about 9 months ago, and the fact that Gil has put out a lot of detail of the method helps hugely with this. When I learnt they were coming to the UK I seized the chance to get it ‘from the horse’s mouth’, as personal instruction can really cement and enhance what you’ve only read about. I wasn’t disappointed, and felt what I spent was well worth it, as they are both adept at getting  the best out of you with their coaching. Nicky T will remember I shot with him on the first day.

 I have found it really suits me personally as a method, helps me analyse a target flight, apply the method and then successfully break the target. I don’t look at the barrels at all now (although I am aware of them in peripheral vision), but focus solely on the clay throughout the shot. You do need to train your brain in this so your shooting action becomes one of trained subconscious mechanics.

Their method is different from those used by other coaches, and may well not suit everyone, but it does work for me. I do visit Carl Bloxham from time to time and am now getting him to help me finesse this method to help me apply it to a full range of sporting targets.

As I’m retired, I don’t want to travel too far for my clay shooting, but if anyone wants to learn more about the OSP method I’d be very happy to meet them at Griffin Lloyd shooting ground on the Welsh border to talk it over and demonstrate it – not that I’d claim to be any expert you understand!

 

[paul b]

I went to the free seminar morning thinking that what i would here would be a totall load of bull, but after listening to gill and seeing his anamations some of what he was saying made sense,and i can assure you that a challenged him on anything i didnt think looked right but he had a answer for anything i could through at him.After the seminar gill invited me to go and have a go at his technique with him and the other shooters there and was amazed at how much better this worked on certain targets compared to my swing through/spray and pray method that i use on everything.Whilst waiting to move on to another stand gill could see i was deep in thought and he said" your seeing how you could of shot those missed birds at your last comp arnt you"" and what i was picturing was the tower birds from the english open at doveridge that hardly anyone strated and since then i have spoke to one of the few that did and he used maintaned lead on them.For me this is just another tool in the box and it will take a while to find out how and when to use it as the game season has more or less put a stop to my practice,but when i do start again i expect to shoot realy bad for a while untill it all gets sorted out in my head. 

 

[targetchip]

Longmynd  you said:

" I don't look at the barrel at all now( although I am aware of them in the peripheral vision) but focus solely on the clay throughout the shot!"

Now, if you consider that this is Gil's method, please ask any Brit coach on how they train " visually normal shooters"! .I guess in the exact  same way!

My question to you is , if that's a normal way to shoot targets( eyes on the bird, gun in the peripheral vision) how Gil's method( the same) made a difference for a cross dominant like you???

Anyone saying that eye dominance in shooting is irrelevant ,for me, that's an impostor! 

How you establish the sight picture,gun- target,(lead)relationship, if you can't line up your gun .seen in the peripheral vision, with the pointing eye  b/c of cross eye dominance?

 The only way is to switch shoulders, which I don't thing you did.

If you answer to this question, I have no other questions for you.

Thank you!