Gun up & down mounting/targetting

[El Spavo]

Initially, I did the standard rookie thing by mounting up, ready for the clay to come into sight, but I progressed to dropping the stock away from my face which I steadily found quite comfortable (although taking the stock completely out the shoulder still seems light years away, but having said that I'm not sure what the benefit is), but recently I've found that I appear to be getting greater success by doing exactly that on pretty much everything, dropping the barrel down, keeping the stock in the shoulder but off the face, and as the clay comes into view, locking the stock to cheek and cracking on. Pretty standard for most I'd imagine, but I'm wondering unless you have literally seconds to shoot, is there now much or any benefit to mounting fully up as the time differential doesn't seem huge to me, and that snap to the cheek is almost like it kicks in the instinct part of shooting as well as the technique part.

Am I talking sh1te and is instinct for amateurs over 100% technique cos I'm struggling to see many people that don't have that part to their game?? And if so, I'm trying to see how much can be technique with those clays where you might get only a few seconds to hit it; to me if it's that small a window, it seems like it's gonna be instinct and muscle memory. Again, might be talking sh1te, I dunno, haven't been shooting long enough!

Just trying to see where I'm going with my game, tbh.

(this is a follow up to the pull away thread, as I'm doing okay, but consciously thinking right now exactly what my gun movements are with regard to method...)

 

[ColinD]

Also a novice but doing the very same thing, also but not on every one dropping out of the shoulder too, seem to be hitting more sporting targets this way.

For me I think I'm just seeing the clays better and sooner this way, seems to make me not snatch at the clays if thats a clay shooting term

 

[Lloyd]

Another novice here experiencing the same thing. I was told recently that I drop the gun out of my shoulder quite often. I wasn’t aware I was doing it. I do know that I would sometime lift my hear slightly off the stock to get a better view, and then in the last moments, head down to take the shot.

I know this might seem a bit off,  but when you say “but I'm wondering unless you have literally seconds to shoot” I believe that’s all you ever have at the very most.

I looked back over some footage of my shooting and most singles were shot in two to three seconds, some in about a second... pairs in four to five seconds.

Those shots that I’d call a window shot, where I definitely feel it’s near pure instinct; flash of clay... BANG! well under a second in duration.

I believe the shots feel much slower when you’re taking them, than they actually are. When people say “you have more time than you think” I feel it’s actually how you’re thinking about them that sort of buys you time, by mentally slowing down the target.

The more slowly I shoot, the more targets I hit, but watching back, over four or five pairs I get quicker and quicker with each pair. This leads to more time between the pairs and that’s when it seems I most often drop the gun from my shoulder and distinctly dwelling, taking time to look for the clay, get to m hold point. It’s almost as if shooting two singles without all the faffing about beforehand. Again, it’s not wholly a conscious thing, it’s more comments people have made and then confirming that in video playback.

As for instinct, I've been variably advised to shoot instinctively and not. Certainly when I started out, instinct played a significant part. As ive been coached, I’m following the advise to shoot less on instinct and more on a clearly observed clay and “barrel awareness” with clearly determined lead. That said, the more I do this, the more it seems the instinctive nature creeps back in

 

[El Spavo]

Hmmm, I don't let the gun leave my shoulder, just drop the stock away from my face, almost like keeping it semi mounted, then pulling it up to my cheek and taking the shot. Just finding it gives me more to view without the restriction of the barrels sometimes, perhaps making me see things clearer and sooner, as you allude to. Wondering if it gives me less time to over think the shot?

Don't get me wrong, I'm only shooting at my local in the high 60s/low 70's so not exactly pulling up trees, just trying to keep learning a little at a time and understanding more than anything.

Another novice here experiencing the same thing. I was told recently that I drop the gun out of my shoulder quite often. I wasn’t aware I was doing it. I do know that I would sometime lift my hear slightly off the stock to get a better view, and then in the last moments, head down to take the shot.

I know this might seem a bit off,  but when you say “but I'm wondering unless you have literally seconds to shoot” I believe that’s all you ever have at the very most.

I looked back over some footage of my shooting and most singles were shot in two to three seconds, some in about a second... pairs in four to five seconds.

Those shots that I’d call a window shot, where I definitely feel it’s near pure instinct; flash of clay... BANG! well under a second in duration.

I believe the shots feel much slower when you’re taking them, than they actually are. When people say “you have more time than you think” I feel it’s actually how you’re thinking about them that sort of buys you time, by mentally slowing down the target.

The more slowly I shoot, the more targets I hit, but watching back, over four or five pairs I get quicker and quicker with each pair. This leads to more time between the pairs and that’s when it seems I most often drop the gun from my shoulder and distinctly dwelling, taking time to look for the clay, get to m hold point. It’s almost as if shooting two singles without all the faffing about beforehand. Again, it’s not wholly a conscious thing, it’s more comments people have made and then confirming that in video playback.

As for instinct, I've been variably advised to shoot instinctively and not. Certainly when I started out, instinct played a significant part. As ive been coached, I’m following the advise to shoot less on instinct and more on a clearly observed clay and “barrel awareness” with clearly determined lead. That said, the more I do this, the more it seems the instinctive nature creeps back in

Sounds like you're doing better than me or least have a better grasp of the mechanics to be a better shooter, but when my stick goes bang I do hit some of them.

 

[Lloyd]

Sounds like you're doing better than me or least have a better grasp of the mechanics to be a better shooter, but when my stick goes bang I do hit some of them.

I don’t think I’m doing any better to be fair. At the moment I’m not really keeping much of a count. More of a guess really. I’d guess that on single targets up to 40-45 yards I’m probably hitting about 8/10. On longer targets and pairs, I’m probably hitting about half, so adding it up, probably very similar to yourself.

I have found watching slow motion footage of myself and other shooters over the shoulder does give me an insight I wouldn’t otherwise have about the mechanics. That said, watching it and then trying to repeat the good bits in the heat of the moment is where the real challenge lies

 

[Jonny English]

I think that there is just one main criteria for which gun mount to use, the gun should be mounted and your head on the stock as the point the clay reaches your hold point. How much time you have from the clay appearing to this happening determines which methods you can use.

 

[Garwood]

Move,mount,shoot!

 

[k80ben]

Move,mount,shoot!

Well as we all know this doesn’t work... look at the top of the leader board I would guess 80% of shots are taken with some form of pre mount 

 

[El Spavo]

Move,mount,shoot!

Well, i'll put my tin hat on cos I'm not Ben and able to point to a shooting pedigree, but I read that book and was not that particularly enamoured with it (especially compared to Chris Batha's Breaking Clays), seemed a bit out of date to what I've picked up in my 2 years of shooting... and someone at the pub got quite agitated, giving me both barrels stating that John Bidwell has shot more than I probably ever will so do I presume to know better? No, just think it didn't work for me. Some good aspects in there, and by no way saying John Bidwell does not know what he's talking about as he's miles above what I ever be, but just not for me.

Anyway, this isn't book club.

Well as we all know this doesn’t work... look at the top of the leader board I would guess 80% of shots are taken with some form of pre mount 

Wasn't gonna say owt, but I was watching your vid where you filmed a round and what I'm now seemingly & subconsciously preferring to do, as an example of what I meant in my original post, is what you do on most of the shots, especially the side on one at 14 minutes, just off the face (sometimes a little further dropped a bit more), but I notice you're pretty much full mounted for the rabbit on the next/later one (not quite full on by the look of it) and deffo on the quick one on 12 minutes... so am I missing out by not naturally using a full mount sometimes? Some targets I'm just not as successful doing that for shots that would scream out to because it's such a small window to shoot, just wondering is instinct driving my shooting too much over technique?

Subsequently to that, are there any successful shooters who drop their gun, even full out the shoulder, for literally everything?

 

[Luke_(NL)]

I wouldn't qualify myself as a successful shooter (I do really really enjoy it though), but I shoot sporting skeet and olympic skeet which are both gun down here. The stock has to touch and cover an ISSF marker tape at the height of one's elbow (if held down straight with lower arm at a 90 degree angle) in the serious form, so that in theory everyone has to cover similar distance in mounting the gun (after the clay comes into view). 

Shooting pre mounted saves time which (in theory at least) makes life easier, on the pairs especially. It might make for better results for novice shooters, but gun up skeet variants look weird to Dutch shooters  . That said,  I'd probably make a mess of things shooting gun up as I'm not used to it at all. 

On other courses I shoot gun down as well, as it feels like cheating to pre-mount knowing when and where the clay will be, but then I don't shoot to the level where every single break counts towards a win or loss.  

 

[El Spavo]

Sorry, I was referring to English sporting which I think has a little more variance in how little you see the bird and unknown angles of trajectory to work with I would propose, but I get your point though.

 

[MartynB]

 For what it’s worth English Sporting used to be a gun down discipline in the dim and distant past , but the rules were changed at some point for some reason I forget .  

As you always see the targets before you shoot in English sporting ,  (and you are going to see them 3 to 5 times on a stand ) you know the hold point you need , so I suppose the smart money is on having the gun shouldered .  I think the standard of shooting today is so high compared to when I started 40 years ago that someone wishing to be competitive would have to take advantage of the rules . 

 

[Westward]

Having reffed at several hundred reg sporting comps and watched most of the big names in action I have to say Ben's dead right. I've occasionally come across someone warming up for Fitasc by shooting ESP low gun but that's about it apart from a couple I can think of who routinely shoot low gun.

I would say the most common technique is to have the gun up but not quite fully home. Maybe half an inch out and down - although some big names do indeed start most shots fully mounted. 

 

[El Spavo]

I would say the most common technique is to have the gun up but not quite fully home. Maybe half an inch out and down - although some big names do indeed start most shots fully mounted. 

Yeah, that's what I have developed into doing, almost without trying too hard. Makes seeing the targets easier... I think might have come as a result of a certain Mr Hewland offering a pointer when I had a blip with nailing incomers, praise redacted.

Strange, the last sentence though, as almost everyone I spoke to when shooting said fully mountin is perfectly acceptable but is a bit... amateur/newbie sort of territory?

As you always see the targets before you shoot in English sporting ,  (and you are going to see them 3 to 5 times on a stand ) you know the hold point you need...

Maybe in your world, but how very dare you insinuate I'm good enough to know what I'm actually doing?!

 

[Westward]

It can be difficult to tell the difference sometimes between a close soft mount and fully mounted, but there are some targets such as trap type and similar where it's normal to be fully mounted. The main advantage of soft mount is a clearer initial view with less hardware in the way. Some people lift their head for the same reason, but offhand I can't think of any of the top shots who do this.

 

[Lloyd]

Strange, the last sentence though, as almost everyone I spoke to when shooting said fully mountin is perfectly acceptable but is a bit... amateur/newbie sort of territory?

Yeah, I’ve been told that too, but I concur with @Westward my observations thought not based on anywhere near as much experience are pretty much the same.

One thing that I’ve found to be more inconsistent than my shooting is the shooting advice on offer.

This seems to be a sport where the expression “each to their own” really applies.

Observing some of the best shooters in video footage or standing behind them or receiving coaching from them, my observation is that even among the elite there is a wide variation in the details, but therein lies some things that seem fundamental and are quite consistent across the best shooters.

 

[El Spavo]

There's a guy who shoots where I go who constantly gives the old, you're behind on that, or some equivalent, but his shooting is simply awful and some stands he can't hit a particular bird for weeks. We all know someone like that I bet.

Pet hate for me is people saying stuff like that when you haven't asked their opinion. Everyone's a twatting expert!

 

[MartynB]

Pet hate for me is people saying stuff like that when you haven't asked their opinion. Everyone's a twatting expert!

Look on the bright side , you know he’s talking bollocks !  

The only permissible time to utter “ you’re behind that “ or other such phrases is when you are shooting with mates for beers or butties , and you need to purposely bugger their score up so they pay ! 
 

 

[Sian]

I like to shoot  gun down and quite often on targets that most would like to shoot gun up.  I certainly do better on lots of presentations that way.  It helps me see the target before I shoot it.   I do like to pick it up with 2 eyes and then close my eye to shoot so if I have my face on the stock to start it’s feels odd and I can get my timing completely wrong.  I often do a pair or sim pair taking my gun down between shooting the targets.   I’m no expert either but I know what I like.  My weakness is just giving up and then the simplest target can beat me.