HSE publish proposal to ban all lead shot

[FESkent]

Lead shot total ban, likely timescale five years.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/reach/restrictions/rr-aavi-0821.pdf

 

[PeeJay]

It appears well written, and it’s obviously definitely coming. At least no one can say they weren’t warned.

 

[FESkent]

Not sure all would agree that it is well written. Illogical to allow olympic athletes to continue with lead shot and not CPSA affiliated, registered clay grounds which operate over a very small area of land so the risks to the environment are very small and nobody eats clay pigeons. Rather reads that they are banning all
lead shot to stop it being illegal used on live quarry.

 

[PeeJay]

I feel that Olympic athletes v CPSA affiliated is simply down to numbers. Obviously nobody eats clay pigeons, but the lead shot sits in the environment and can affect wildlife. Personally (just my opinion) that’s a bigger issue, and cause for a ban, than lead shot in game birds.

 

[MartynB]

How many clay shooters completed and submitted a consultation document ? I believe that 11000 were submitted in total , There are approx 25000 registered CPSA shooters , around 80,000 BASC members . Then around another 400,000 shotgun certificate holders . So 98% aren’t bothered by a ban . Open goal for the HSE .

On the other hand , if you accept that shooting clays is a level competition , based on a pretty standard cartridge specification and ability is the differentiate , the top guns will still be the top guns , irrespective if the shot is lead , steel or other

 

[FESkent]

to certain point I agree but shot over a clay ground is a very small area the Club I am a member of has been shooting lead shot for fifty years, has an airgun area and rifle range both of which will continue to be allowed to shoot lead. Then we have buzzards, pigeons. crows, woodpeckers, squirrels, rabbits, foxes etc etc.
If you walk the managed grass area you would find it difficult even to see lead shot on the surface. However on the plus side it will not be an issue to move to steel shot in five years but the lead will still remain. Some have tried steel shot and the report is louder than for lead so that may be an issue for grounds.

 

[Freddypip]

Arguing the pros & cons of a lead ban at this stage is pointless.

The REACH 'legislation' - UK law made to match the EU post Brexit - was never really designed to be used for this purpose and the HSE are not the correct body to investigate this type of ban. DEFRA have used the HSE's authority to allow the government (whichever of the day) to hide from the decision they are already required to take; see Footnote 1 on Page 7 and the circular process of the HSEs using the Environment Agencys advice.

Hopefully the HSE will now be asked to investigate some of the food easily found in supermarkets and assess it's consequences on the public's health. God forbid they may even open the door into a fast food outlet.

 

[Jeff-7]

This could be the start of a downward spiral for the small fibre only sunday morning shoots. If the landowner does not want bio-wads on his land its game over. If on the other hand bio-wads are ok will club members want to pay the extra cost of the cartridges.The result will be the same, less shooters, shoot not viable so club closes.
Lets hope the manufacturers can come up with a solution

 

[perazman]

This could be the start of a downward spiral for the small fibre only sunday morning shoots. If the landowner does not want bio-wads on his land its game over. If on the other hand bio-wads are ok will club members want to pay the extra cost of the cartridges.The result will be the same, less shooters, shoot not viable so club closes.
Lets hope the manufacturers can come up with a solution

I've been saying this for years yet BASC etc don't seem to listen. The grass roots of our sport is local fibre wad shoots. Registered targets are only a small percentage of the total clays shot (or they certainly are in the north).

When the ordinary working man discovers his £270 a thou fibre lead club loads are now a £440 eco steel loads, what's he going to do?

This could start a massive demise of our sport. BASC's current response is just to defend their appeasement and the CPSA haven't seen it as worth commenting on!

PM

 

[MartynB]

Again though I’ll reiterate , half a million certificate holders . The debate has been ongoing since 2020 , yet despite the consultation papers being linked on every social media platform , only 11000 of us put our personal views forward . I’ve personally told BASC representatives that their appeasement was not what the members wanted . I’ve voted for the best candidate on BASC regional elections . As woeful as BASC is and as invisible as the CPSA are Where were all the grass roots shooters who are going to be affected ? If there had been 400,000 responses the HSE would still be reading them in 2030 !

 

[Garwood2]

I've been saying this for years yet BASC etc don't seem to listen. The grass roots of our sport is local fibre wad shoots. Registered targets are only a small percentage of the total clays shot (or they certainly are in the north).

When the ordinary working man discovers his £270 a thou fibre lead club loads are now a £440 eco steel loads, what's he going to do?

This could start a massive demise of our sport. BASC's current response is just to defend their appeasement and the CPSA haven't seen it as worth commenting on!

PM

Don`t you think that was always the underlying plan.........

 

[Deleted member 230]

I'm afraid the cpsa stance to throw game shooters under the bus and get in bed with hse to try and protect clay shooting was an abject failure and total misjudgement of the situation. This is probably why they are not commenting.
Basc . Their capitulation is what started this mess. And yep I get what your saying about half a million certificate holders. But when the bodies that should fight for us basically sold us down the river then maybe you can understand why many felt that it was a stitch up from the start and didn't bother.
The real loosers are folk who rely on shooting for their livelihood. And of the course the economy. 1000s of jobs and billions of pounds down the pan. Jobs and money that this country can ill afford. But as a back door to eliminating shooting, it's a great plan. And you don't have to compensate all the gun owners like you would if you just banned shooting.

 

[perazman]

I'm afraid the cpsa stance to throw game shooters under the bus and get in bed with hse to try and protect clay shooting was an abject failure and total misjudgement of the situation. This is probably why they are not commenting.
Basc . Their capitulation is what started this mess. And yep I get what your saying about half a million certificate holders. But when the bodies that should fight for us basically sold us down the river then maybe you can understand why many felt that it was a stitch up from the start and didn't bother.
The real loosers are folk who rely on shooting for their livelihood. And of the course the economy. 1000s of jobs and billions of pounds down the pan. Jobs and money that this country can ill afford. But as a back door to eliminating shooting, it's a great plan. And you don't have to compensate all the gun owners like you would if you just banned shooting.

To be fair to the CPSA, they can be excused this time of year as they're clearly distracted by their personal highlight of the year, the CPSA awards (p*ss up).

That annual get together of the great and good in the world of clayshooting. Financed by the plebs and given far greater media coverage than any title shoot off you care to mention!

PM.

 

[FESkent]

This could be the start of a downward spiral for the small fibre only sunday morning shoots. If the landowner does not want bio-wads on his land its game over. If on the other hand bio-wads are ok will club members want to pay the extra cost of the cartridges.The result will be the same, less shooters, shoot not viable so club closes.
Lets hope the manufacturers can come up with a solution

certainly a long way to go, with 1,500 different products, just two are listed as eco wads and non toxic shot and just one of them in stock at £429.00 per 1000

 

[Deleted member 230]

I feel that Olympic athletes v CPSA affiliated is simply down to numbers. Obviously nobody eats clay pigeons, but the lead shot sits in the environment and can affect wildlife. Personally (just my opinion) that’s a bigger issue, and cause for a ban, than lead shot in game birds.

I think maybe your post should say that lead sits in the environment. (Not lead shot)
I.E it's a naturally occurring substance.

 

[PeeJay]

I think maybe your post should say that lead sits in the environment. (Not lead shot)
I.E it's a naturally occurring substance.

Correct, lead is found naturally in the environment, but that isn’t the issue here. It’s whether the additional lead shot that is left after clay shooting matters. That was my point (as I’m sure you know).

 

[PeeJay]

I'm afraid the cpsa stance to throw game shooters under the bus and get in bed with hse to try and protect clay shooting was an abject failure and total misjudgement of the situation. This is probably why they are not commenting.
Basc . Their capitulation is what started this mess. And yep I get what your saying about half a million certificate holders. But when the bodies that should fight for us basically sold us down the river then maybe you can understand why many felt that it was a stitch up from the start and didn't bother.
The real loosers are folk who rely on shooting for their livelihood. And of the course the economy. 1000s of jobs and billions of pounds down the pan. Jobs and money that this country can ill afford. But as a back door to eliminating shooting, it's a great plan. And you don't have to compensate all the gun owners like you would if you just banned shooting.

I’m not convinced this is a back door to eliminate shooting. But I’m as certain as I can be that if shooting/guns were banned, gun owners would not be compensated. There’s no legal requirement for that, and any moral obligation is purely a matter of opinion.

I just don’t see 1000s of jobs and billions of pounds lost. The manufacturers will supply a product to meet requirements, at a cost that people can afford (and are willing to pay) and keeps businesses running.

 

[vmax1010]

I've not got a problem with shooting steel, at my level it wouldn't make much difference to my scores, the problem I have is the wads, I went over to fibre 20 years ago because of plastic pollution, I know they are bio degradable but from what I've seen they seem to take a long time to degrade, has anyone tried the wads to see how long they take to degrade?

 

[Deleted member 230]

I’m not convinced this is a back door to eliminate shooting. But I’m as certain as I can be that if shooting/guns were banned, gun owners would not be compensated. There’s no legal requirement for that, and any moral obligation is purely a matter of opinion.

I just don’t see 1000s of jobs and billions of pounds lost. The manufacturers will supply a product to meet requirements, at a cost that people can afford (and are willing to pay) and keeps businesses running.

Exactly the attitudes that got us to this.
If you own something and the government takes it off you they have to pay you . Simples. As they had to when handguns were banned..
Lead from clay grounds which falls in specific places is easily cleared with a machine and recycled to provide a tidy sum for said clay ground. The same cannot be said of lead occurring naturally..As has been stated its a stitch up. Shooting ban via the back door. Catch up.

 

[PeeJay]

Exactly the attitudes that got us to this.
If you own something and the government takes it off you they have to pay you . Simples. As they had to when handguns were banned..
Lead from clay grounds which falls in specific places is easily cleared with a machine and recycled to provide a tidy sum for said clay ground. The same cannot be said of lead occurring naturally..As has been stated its a stitch up. Shooting ban via the back door. Catch up.

You’re wrong. It’s not ‘simples’ despite you thinking it. The government introduced the compensation for some handgun owners when it passed the 1997 firearms act. It is under no legal obligation to repeat that, or offer compensation to anything else that’s banned.

They may choose to, but there is no legal requirement. If you think there is, provide the link.

It’s frankly naive to think that all (or even most) lead shot is collected and recycled. It’s this insistence that everything is okay and there’s no problems that has helped get us into this position in the first place.

It happened with fishing, and it’s happened in other countries with lead shot. It’s happening here, and not everyone will see it as a conspiracy.