HSE publish proposal to ban all lead shot

[PeeJay]

What is the difference between long term lead pollution and rust pollution, I can't find anything about it?
Are we better off ingesting lead or steel in our game birds?

Like anything, it depends on the quantities involved.

The digestion process can convert small amounts of iron oxide back to iron, which we need in our diets.

Whether the steel pellets would rust significantly while in the birds is the main question. Apart from anything, it depends on the composition, whereas lead is lead. It’s there and harmful from day one.

I also think we shouldn’t ignore the pressure that’s come from the naturalists and environmentalists. Personally I believe that’s more pressing than the danger to humans from lead shot in birds and has been the biggest pressure to ban lead.

 

[TRINITY]

Iron is not an issue its everywhere. Its also abundant in your own body, that why your blood is red.

 

[vmax1010]

It seems "steel shot" is the cheapest pig iron money can buy, johnny carter did a couple of YouTube videos with a guy who loaded steel shot into a fibre cartridges to see what damage was done to the barrels, seem to remember it wasn't that bad

 

[Jonny English]

I would like to think that now the report has been published and a timeline given that developments in shot and wads will be underway with the manufacturers. Cartridge companies won't develop or release products until a market is there. All of a sudden there is now going to be a market and in 5 years time a demand for non toxic shot and an environmentally friendly wads. All of them are in the business to stay in business. The shot is already there to a degree and so are the bio wads, the question being volume and price point. As the volume is now going to go up, hopefully the price point becomes more end user friendly. There is already a base there, and I would imagine there is more development to come yet. Sit tight and don't make any rash decisions at this stage of the process.

 

[TRINITY]

I would like to think that now the report has been published and a timeline given that developments in shot and wads will be underway with the manufacturers. Cartridge companies won't develop or release products until a market is there. All of a sudden there is now going to be a market and in 5 years time a demand for non toxic shot and an environmentally friendly wads. All of them are in the business to stay in business. The shot is already there to a degree and so are the bio wads, the question being volume and price point. As the volume is now going to go up, hopefully the price point becomes more end user friendly. There is already a base there, and I would imagine there is more development to come yet. Sit tight and don't make any rash decisions at this stage of the process.

Good points there Jonny,

I also suspect there will be at least one gun manufacture that will see this as an opportunity to market something new.

For instance the new DT Fe a gun with its barrels specifically designed for the unique ballistics of steel shot.

 

[perazman]

I would like to think that now the report has been published and a timeline given that developments in shot and wads will be underway with the manufacturers. Cartridge companies won't develop or release products until a market is there. All of a sudden there is now going to be a market and in 5 years time a demand for non toxic shot and an environmentally friendly wads. All of them are in the business to stay in business. The shot is already there to a degree and so are the bio wads, the question being volume and price point. As the volume is now going to go up, hopefully the price point becomes more end user friendly. There is already a base there, and I would imagine there is more development to come yet. Sit tight and don't make any rash decisions at this stage of the process.

Sadly I don't share your optimism as far as manufacturers are concerned. They currently see budget loads as a necessary evil.

We may see it as cutting their own throats but from their perspective it's margin that matters. None of them are prepared to currently undercut the others to gain market share and run at higher turnover/lower margin.

If the cartridge market halved but increased margin kept their business healthy then that's exactly what they'll do.

PM.

 

[westley]

Unless there are any other gasfitters/plumbers/shooters on the Forum who are reaching 80 years of age, I have probably handled or ingested more lead than anybody else on here. I smile when I read just how harmful to us and the environment, we are being told lead actually is. I have yet to see any evidence of the destruction it is causing, and I am unlikely to I am sure. Whilst you are all snug in your eco friendly homes, safe from the devastation that lead is causing, a recent conversation I had with a United Utilities plumber may be of interest. You see ALL of the houses that are situated on the road where I live, are having their water supplied through LEAD piping. I know many have paid to have a plastic water service pipe installed, what they don't realise is, from the isolation valve or water meter situated in the roadway outside their property, to the actual water main is still LEAD ! That does NOT get replaced. The UU plumber would not deny that, he just gave a wry smile, finished his tea and left.
I would be safe in saying the Government will not be chasing the water companies to put their house in order, and replace ALL of their lead piping anytime soon.

 

[westley]

I only know of 2 people who have died from lead.....one was hit over the head with lead piping, in order to steal his car, the other fell off a church roof whilst doing his bit for the environment by removing the lead flashing !

 

[Jonny English]

Sadly I don't share your optimism as far as manufacturers are concerned. They currently see budget loads as a necessary evil.

We may see it as cutting their own throats but from their perspective it's margin that matters. None of them are prepared to currently undercut the others to gain market share and run at higher turnover/lower margin.

If the cartridge market halved but increased margin kept their business healthy then that's exactly what they'll do.

PM.

The point is though that those current budget loads made from lead are only going to have a foreign market after the 5 years. They will then have to bring to market a budget steel load with plastic and bio wad to fill that void in their sales. Economies of scale should come into effect and make them more viable than they are currently. I'm not saying they will be the same price as our current lead budget loads, but we shouldn't see the extreme prices of the current non toxic game loads hopefully.

 

[General Skanky]

It’s all about the risk/likelihood calculation.

They were lobbied and told how a complete ban would adversely affect Olympic competitors etc putting them at a serious disadvantage.

So they clearly reasoned that the compromise was banning the hundreds of thousands of hobbyists (my word), while allowing the few to still compete. To be fair it does seem a reasonable compromise.

I am now an Olympian…..

 

[PeeJay]

Unless there are any other gasfitters/plumbers/shooters on the Forum who are reaching 80 years of age, I have probably handled or ingested more lead than anybody else on here. I smile when I read just how harmful to us and the environment, we are being told lead actually is. I have yet to see any evidence of the destruction it is causing, and I am unlikely to I am sure. Whilst you are all snug in your eco friendly homes, safe from the devastation that lead is causing, a recent conversation I had with a United Utilities plumber may be of interest. You see ALL of the houses that are situated on the road where I live, are having their water supplied through LEAD piping. I know many have paid to have a plastic water service pipe installed, what they don't realise is, from the isolation valve or water meter situated in the roadway outside their property, to the actual water main is still LEAD ! That does NOT get replaced. The UU plumber would not deny that, he just gave a wry smile, finished his tea and left.
I would be safe in saying the Government will not be chasing the water companies to put their house in order, and replace ALL of their lead piping anytime soon.

I was under the impression that lead piping supplying mains water to premises furs up inside after a while and that, plus water flowing through rather than stood, helps reduce lead. Obviously, the risk of lead to humans is much more about the serious long term ill effects, rather than death, sudden or otherwise.

As for lead damaging wildlife, it does, and several studies and experiments have shown this. Banning lead certainly helped save the Californian Condor. If anyone is interested on how lead affects wildlife it’s all on Google. An elderly plumber who hasn’t been affected doesn’t change that.

 

[Clynt]

I was under the impression that lead piping supplying mains water to premises furs up inside after a while and that, plus water flowing through rather than stood, helps reduce lead. Obviously, the risk of lead to humans is much more about the serious long term ill effects, rather than death, sudden or otherwise.

As for lead damaging wildlife, it does, and several studies and experiments have shown this. Banning lead certainly helped save the Californian Condor. If anyone is interested on how lead affects wildlife it’s all on Google. An elderly plumber who hasn’t been affected doesn’t change that.

I'm slightly amused that anyone would suggest believing anything from the likes of media giants such as Google !!! you seem to be backing so say steel over lead excessively ???? is there a reason other than your personal view ?? are you a regular clay shooter or game shooter who has the responsibility of dispatching quarry with the best component's at our disposal ???

 

[PeeJay]

I'm slightly amused that anyone would suggest believing anything from the likes of media giants such as Google !!! you seem to be backing so say steel over lead excessively ???? is there a reason other than your personal view ?? are you a regular clay shooter or game shooter who has the responsibility of dispatching quarry with the best component's at our disposal ???

I’m always slightly amused at those who use Google being a media giant to dismiss the need for personal research. The factual information about the damage that lead causes is out there. People can choose to ignore the science, the WHO, naturalists and environmentalist etc. if they choose. But you’re flying in the face of accredited experts worldwide. I accept that they could all be wrong and you’re right, but on balance I’ll go with their findings, supported by science.

I’m not backing steel over lead. I’m simply pointing out the science about lead to those who deny it. We should at least be honest, and accept the data, even if we don’t then accept the need to change to steel.

The countries that have banned lead in favour of steel (e.g. USA banned it for waterfowl in 1991) don’t appear to have problems despatching live quarry effectively and efficiently, despite their initial reservations. Norway banned it almost 3 decades ago and have no problems with even large birds like Canada geese. Smaller species present no problems.

Based on their experiences, and many others, it shouldn’t be an issue here.

 

[Clynt]

I’m always slightly amused at those who use Google being a media giant to dismiss the need for personal research. The factual information about the damage that lead causes is out there. People can choose to ignore the science, the WHO, naturalists and environmentalist etc. if they choose. But you’re flying in the face of accredited experts worldwide. I accept that they could all be wrong and you’re right, but on balance I’ll go with their findings, supported by science.

I’m not backing steel over lead. I’m simply pointing out the science about lead to those who deny it. We should at least be honest, and accept the data, even if we don’t then accept the need to change to steel.

The countries that have banned lead in favour of steel (e.g. USA banned it for waterfowl in 1991) don’t appear to have problems despatching live quarry effectively and efficiently, despite their initial reservations. Norway banned it almost 3 decades ago and have no problems with even large birds like Canada geese. Smaller species present no problems.

Based on their experiences, and many others, it shouldn’t be an issue here.

You don't shoot then ??? is that the same WHO that appear to be beholding to the Chinese pay masters ?? the countries you mention ,do they not use automatic single barrel guns with 3" magnum proofing's and seldom use side by sides and under and over shot guns >>? you base your opinions on countries that have little in common with our shooting established systems ? if the data was or has been founded hear then I'll debate with whoever but I'm yet to be convinced with evidence of clarity on our shores

 

[MartynB]

I can emphatically say that lead does not harm 66% of a random distribution sample of pheasants . This is based on my cartridge to kill ratio today in a nasty 50mph wind .

 

[PeeJay]

You don't shoot then ??? is that the same WHO that appear to be beholding to the Chinese pay masters ?? the countries you mention ,do they not use automatic single barrel guns with 3" magnum proofing's and seldom use side by sides and under and over shot guns >>? you base your opinions on countries that have little in common with our shooting established systems ? if the data was or has been founded hear then I'll debate with whoever but I'm yet to be convinced with evidence of clarity on our shores

Where did I say I don’t shoot?

Yes, the WHO, plus other scientists, plus science itself, and accredited medical experts, plus international naturalists and environmentalists have all presented evidence that lead is dangerous to a) humans and b) general wildlife. The data is well established and peer reviewed and has been known and available for decades. But as I said, you can choose to believe that they are all incorrect and you’re right.

I’m surprised by your assertion that all the existing countries that use steel shot use single barrel automatic weapons exclusively. Even if that were true, I’m not sure how that affects the efficacy of steel against game.

However, all that being said, you’re clearly convinced that lead poses no threat to humans or wildlife and that steel won’t be suitable here. That’s your prerogative but for obvious reasons I’ll agree to differ

 

[FESkent]

It’s all about the risk/likelihood calculation.

They were lobbied and told how a complete ban would adversely affect Olympic competitors etc putting them at a serious disadvantage.

So they clearly reasoned that the compromise was banning the hundreds of thousands of hobbyists (my word), while allowing the few to still compete. To be fair it does seem a reasonable compromise.

But where do their replacements come from, once the current olympic competitions retire? and 1.25 million 28gm cartridges is still a lot of lead 35 tonne,

 

[Robden]

But where do their replacements come from, once the current olympic competitions retire? and 1.25 million 28gm cartridges is still a lot of lead 35 tonne,

That is a lot of lead and we just move the lead from point A to point B. Whereas steel, we just keep making it and adding it to the environment, so that can't be very eco-friendly surely. Wonder if Greta T knows?

 

[TRINITY]

That is a lot of lead and we just move the lead from point A to point B. Whereas steel, we just keep making it and adding it to the environment, so that can't be very eco-friendly surely. Wonder if Greta T knows?

Do you realise that the planet we all live on is made up of many elements and one third of those in mass is iron. Iron is not an issue, its an essential mineral in all forms of life. Iron is environmentally friendly , it may have many issues from a shooting perspective but environmental damage is not one of them.

 

[Clynt]

Where did I say I don’t shoot?

Yes, the WHO, plus other scientists, plus science itself, and accredited medical experts, plus international naturalists and environmentalists have all presented evidence that lead is dangerous to a) humans and b) general wildlife. The data is well established and peer reviewed and has been known and available for decades. But as I said, you can choose to believe that they are all incorrect and you’re right.

I’m surprised by your assertion that all the existing countries that use steel shot use single barrel automatic weapons exclusively. Even if that were true, I’m not sure how that affects the efficacy of steel against game.

However, all that being said, you’re clearly convinced that lead poses no threat to humans or wildlife and that steel won’t be suitable here. That’s your prerogative but for obvious reasons I’ll agree to differ

Lead flashings on all houses, churches ect country wide going next haha