HSE publish proposal to ban all lead shot

[PeeJay]

Lead flashings on all houses, churches ect country wide going next haha

I think it will be changed eventually, on a replacement basis. So as/when work is done, an alternative is used.

Regardless of whether it’s changed, it’s not really comparable to lead shot.

Flashings tend to be a one off; once fitted they stay in place for hundreds of years. Whereas lead shot is continually being added.

Flashings are not generally affecting wildlife. Birds don’t peck at lead flashings, whereas they do ingest lead pellets. This affects them and is also passed up the food chain.

Lead pellets can directly affect meat for human consumption, whereas any lead from the surface flashing during rain is massively diluted and may never affect the food chain.

 

[k80ben]

Steel shot also has a pressure peak going through the choke as it does not yield like lead. Hence the limitations on choke restriction for steel shot.

The choke restrictions are nonsense…. I’ve shot more steel than most and frankly hassekamp has shot over a million steel through a full full perazzi

 

[Bavarian]

The choke restrictions are nonsense…. I’ve shot more steel than most and frankly hassekamp has shot over a million steel through a full full perazzi

Might not be a problem with 28g 2.4mm but with 3" 53g 4mm Magnum. The companies stay on the safe side with their restrictions.

 

[FESkent]

The choke restrictions are nonsense…. I’ve shot more steel than most and frankly hassekamp has shot over a million steel through a full full perazzi

Well i have seen choke damage due to steel shot, including one where a pellet manage to wedge itself between the barrel thread and choke thread, resulting in a pip on the outside of the barrel and a choke that will never come out. Yes potentially caused by the choke not being full seated, so check your chokes are tight.
But choke restrictions are not nonsense and I bet all or most of the millions or what you have shot are with tough single use plastic wads.

 

[Clynt]

I think it will be changed eventually, on a replacement basis. So as/when work is done, an alternative is used.

Regardless of whether it’s changed, it’s not really comparable to lead shot.

Flashings tend to be a one off; once fitted they stay in place for hundreds of years. Whereas lead shot is continually being added.

Flashings are not generally affecting wildlife. Birds don’t peck at lead flashings, whereas they do ingest lead pellets. This affects them and is also passed up the food chain.

Lead pellets can directly affect meat for human consumption, whereas any lead from the surface flashing during rain is massively diluted and may never affect the food chain.

Obviously there is data to back the idea that wild life passes away due to the ingesting of lead pellets ??? who goes out and collects these dead carcases and carries out the assessment of cause of death ? is it country wide or selected areas ? I would suggest (lived in the countryside all my life ) with the amount of predators it is highly unlikely that any dead carcase is there to be collected for 24-48hrs ,these ,collectors of carcases must be at best lucky to come upon said dead carcases and the said data surely cannot be taken to be country wide ?? ie find 2 carcases with in 1 acre and apply that formula to 100,000 acres ????

 

[Bavarian]

We have this topic in germany and even the ministery for agriculture and nutrition says that there is no more danger through eating game shot with lead ammunition than eating other food or game shot with lead free ammunition. Lead is harmful when solved and rinsed in groundwater (therefore very strong acids are needed) or vapored but not nearly as harmful when in solid state. Lead gets a white oxide layer and stays like this.
At the munich olympic shooting ground ( 5 Stands Trap and skeet, lots of lead shot) they have tests every year and there is almost zero lead in the ground. Of course there is some, as it is everywhere.
The relevant toxic lead comes mainly from exhaust pollutions which affect our food and animal feed.
So perhaps eating 2 kilos of broccoli is more dangerous than eating 2 kilos of venison where one lead bullet did it´s work.
And i cannot believe that anti- hunting and anti- gun groups do just worry about all our health.
Sweden will not accept the total ban of lead ammunition because of serious doubts due to lead free ammunitions´ effectiveness.

 

[PeeJay]

Obviously there is data to back the idea that wild life passes away due to the ingesting of lead pellets ??? who goes out and collects these dead carcases and carries out the assessment of cause of death ? is it country wide or selected areas ? I would suggest (lived in the countryside all my life ) with the amount of predators it is highly unlikely that any dead carcase is there to be collected for 24-48hrs ,these ,collectors of carcases must be at best lucky to come upon said dead carcases and the said data surely cannot be taken to be country wide ?? ie find 2 carcases with in 1 acre and apply that formula to 100,000 acres ????

There is yes.

Mellor and McCartney 1994
Rooney et al 1999
Tabecchia et al 2001
Pain et al 2009
Etc etc etc.

There are dozens of studies, referenced by internationally accredited experts, peer reviewed and with supporting data.

They all recognise and discuss the wildlife and human health risks from lead ammunition. They discuss that exposure to lead has already been controlled in plumbing, paints, petrol etc. Some of these studies have shown that lead ammunition is a significant source of lead exposure in those who eat game. They also discuss how ingestion by waterfowl is associated with increased death rates.

These studies all conclude that as the evidence of the risks of increase lead is substantial (e.g. there is no safe lead level in children), and that alternatives to lead are available, a switch to these would be benificial.

The studies, data and expert commentary from many countries is available. All individuals can do is read them and decide for themselves if they accept the findings.

 

[MartynB]

It really doesn’t matter whether we believe the science or not because it’s too late to do anything about it . We’ve just got to get on with it . What I will say is a lot of science has gone into the matter globally , some of it by BASC , probably about zero by the CPSA , but it’s still gone. It’s a bit like me railing about Brexit every time I’m waiting for my passport to be stamped in Spain , I didn’t want Brexit but the other side won , didn’t matter that I didn’t believe them , they won . Same with Lead . I doubt it’s the end of it either . Single use plastics are a global nightmare , wads will become the subject of legislation . If I was a land owner I’d also be very worried about future possibilities of remediation costs for contamination of land by past activities if I ever wanted to sell that land .

 

[Richard59]

The choke restrictions are nonsense…. I’ve shot more steel than most and frankly hassekamp has shot over a million steel through a full full perazzi

Bigger worry for the vast majority of us is more the wads, most steel for clay loads that I can easily see / find are usingthe single use plastic wad that’s now looking to come under pressure to be removed and the alternatives for use with steel look pretty expensive. Anyone aware of steel clay loads with non plastic wads and cost of same?

 

[Freddypip]

I had a quick look at the Deborah Pain article – “A global update of lead poisoning in terrestrial birds from ammunition sources”. It does quote a lot of previous articles to support presumptions so, in itself, is the “update” it says it is, and not factual evidence I would prefer to see. The article also states “Lead is not an essential element” & “There is no true ‘no-effect’ threshold level for lead” such that the writers start with a presumption of removal; they might be international accredited experts but they do have an agenda (whether free from bias or not).

My issue with the way this has been handled is the use of REACH achieve the banning of lead when the Regulations were not designed for this purpose – The HSE summarise the purposes of REACH as,

UK REACH is a regulation that applies to the majority of chemical substances that are manufactured in or imported into Great Britain (GB) (England, Scotland, Wales). This can be:

• A substance on its own
• A substance in a mixture, for example ink or paint
• A substance that makes up an 'article' - an object that is produced with a special shape, surface or design, for example a car, furniture or clothes.

To require the HSE manage lead (an element) in cartridges is opening a whole can of worms over what they should be looking at and when. Does it extend to all foods and why is this not a matter for the Food Standards Agency. Should they investigate smoking or vaping ?? I can easily see someone mischievous (wealthy) person waiting for 4 years down the transition period and then challenging whether REACH gives the government (EU etc) sufficient power to make the changes putting the whole thing in limbo and then back to the start.

By using the premise of eliminating lead at all costs and then using a ‘back door’ set of regulations, no one is quite sure of the future and what is required to ensure all of the various interests are happy going forward. I agree with Martin that this is done deal but I would have much preferred an honest agreement over what else is going to change so we can move forward with clarity re plastic wads etc. I have some sympathy with cartridge makers if they lack confidence over what they will be making in five years time and/or when the mechanism of regulation isn’t fit for the purpose it is being used for.

 

[perazman]

Isn't it amazing how a small group of people participating in a minority sport seem to be the root of all evil!

As I type this, millions of football fans are travelling the length and breadth of the country. Burning fossil fuels to stand under blazing floodlights whilst drinking out of plastic glasses!

That's fine though. It's a few folk standing in a field shooting clays that need stopping!

If you didn't laugh you'd cry!

PM.

 

[Lukeypoodle]

The choke restrictions are nonsense…. I’ve shot more steel than most and frankly hassekamp has shot over a million steel through a full full perazzi

Have heard very similar from several people now regarding high volumes of clay load steel in tight chokes with no damage. Sounds like essentially the old wives tales about choking steel were just that.

Only thing I'm worried about now is whether steel cartridges will throw the nice wide pattern I want for skeet!

 

[Robden]

I think all this "talk" of steel being a barrel destroyer, is like all the hype about the millennium bug, how it would destroy anything using an electronic dating system.