New UT format

[PhilR]

Sorry Greg

In a bit of a hurry posting that last night

Point one  Why change something that is not broken and may cost more to shoot?

Point two It is difficult to argue for or against a format nobody really knows yet.

Point three. Are FITASC going to remove their licence to shoot the old UT format.. they own the intellectual property rights. One assumes they could remove the right to shoot it?

Point four. On the four days that the world champs and the Euro champs were on there were more people shooting club comps and training down here. In other words FITASC are putting a great deal of thought about the way UT is shot in major championships that more than 95% of the UT shooting public are totally unconcerned about... have they even thought about what grass roots shooting thinks about the format?  This leads me to believe that if FITASC do not remove the right to use their format and computer technology for UT as it stands most clubs, down here at least, will not adopt the new format as the shooters are happy with what they presently have .

hope this make more sense.

John

1. FITASC are not concerned about the cost of the shoot to competitors.  The UT Technical Commission whilst I was a member of it (ten years) consistently told Palinkas that the entry fee was too high for no return i.e. prize money or article prizes.

2. It isn't difficult to argue against a wholesale change to a discipline by somebody who knows nothing of it.  Changes should be made by the TC not bullied through by the President of FITASC.

3. If a country's Federation remains affiliated to FITASC for a particular discipline then that country can continue to shoot it.

4. The rank and file French UT shooters cottoned on some time ago the FITASC events are overpriced and there are plenty of competitions around with good returns for the entry fee (value for money). I was the TC delegate who attended the French national UT championships/ FITASC GP at Ychoux in 2007 to approve the ground ready for the World Championships in 2008. There were 698 entries plus a waiting list on a 200 target, 4 day shoot.  In 2008 although a big entry as it was a new venue for the World, plus being adjacent to the coast, there wasn't the massive French entry of the previous year.  The French will typically do their own thing for domestic UT. Whether the team selections would be run on the new format, if it is introduced next year remains to be seen.

The new FFBT President, my good friend Jean Michel Moutoufis, is a keen UT shooter and has been the national team manager for a few years and I know he's anti the snake system.  He was President of the TC when we resigned en bloc after Palinkas tried to bully us in Maribor in 2013 to accept it.  There is no love lost between Palinkas and FFBT, did you notice there was no obituary on the FITASC website for Denis Julien the former FFBT President when he died? Denis was the contintental President of Europe and also a former FITASC Treasurer.

 

[jwpzx9r]

Phil you are well in the know re the machinations of FITASC and you will well know how massive the participation in UT there is in France. My point about arguing about the proposed change is endorsed by your comment... I have yet to meet anybody here who has made comment about these proposals and most of the people I shoot with are active competition shooters.  My gut feeling is that down here there will be little appetite for changes to a discipline that is enjoyed by most club shooters and where the infrastructure for the current UT format is already in place bought and paid for by the members. Re major UT competition shooting 90% of the entrants to these competitions are average, some, the majority in fact are not even at the average, club shooters who are willing to shell out the costs involved in having a good weekend away... let us not in any way confuse them as being anything other than that... but they expect to be shooting the same format they shoot at their respective clubs. And here is where I think the problems will arise if clubs do not adopt the proposed changes that are made to UT will these shooters still attend their week away jolly ? However if I interpret your post correctly there is only one man doing the shouting here and the proposals will more than likely fall flat?

 

[Dog Tyred]

Phil you are well in the know re the machinations of FITASC and you will well know how massive the participation in UT there is in France. My point about arguing about the proposed change is endorsed by your comment... I have yet to meet anybody here who has made comment about these proposals and most of the people I shoot with are active competition shooters.  My gut feeling is that down here there will be little appetite for changes to a discipline that is enjoyed by most club shooters and where the infrastructure for the current UT format is already in place bought and paid for by the members. Re major UT competition shooting 90% of the entrants to these competitions are average, some, the majority in fact are not even at the average, club shooters who are willing to shell out the costs involved in having a good weekend away... let us not in any way confuse them as being anything other than that... but they expect to be shooting the same format they shoot at their respective clubs. And here is where I think the problems will arise if clubs do not adopt the proposed changes that are made to UT will these shooters still attend their week away jolly ? However if I interpret your post correctly there is only one man doing the shouting here and the proposals will more than likely fall flat?

John

Never underestimate the power of the President. Palinkas is the one that pushed for the 2016 Worlds to be held in Morocco against the wishes of the majority of the other member countries and guess where the 2016 World Championships are being held!! Could be a very quiet event

DT

 

[40UP]

The new FITASC 300 ABT discipline. It wouldn't involve something snakelike would it?

 

[PhilR]

The new FITASC 300 ABT discipline. It wouldn't involve something snakelike would it?

Didn't hear that mentioned at the demonstration in Italy.

 

[jwpzx9r]

John

Never underestimate the power of the President. Palinkas is the one that pushed for the 2016 Worlds to be held in Morocco against the wishes of the majority of the other member countries and guess where the 2016 World Championships are being held!! Could be a very quiet event

DT

Indeed Greg just how many of the shooters who made up the majority of the competitors at Granada for example will want to have a shooting holiday in Morocco... well you could answer that one ... thinking of going with Harry ? To be fair I could understand someone like Harry or young Phil dabber going they are wanting to progress in the sport and show promise why would you not want to compete most though are just on holiday and enjoying the experience.

 

[PhilR]

 However if I interpret your post correctly there is only one man doing the shouting here and the proposals will more than likely fall flat?

Never underestimate Palinkas.  He's managed to engineer himself a job for life and is bombproof, allegedly.  He has his cronies upon the FITASC board and Presidents of other federations, the Italian federation in particular who held the snake test event.  There's six members of the Tech Comm - France, Italy, Czech Rep, Gt Britain, Spain and Austria.  Italy has two members, Sandro Polsinelli was parachuted onto the TC as President even though Italy already have a member. Normally the President is selected from one of the existing members, but not this time, I wonder why?  The World Championships in Lonato in 2014 was held over two days and twelve layouts, that was forced in by Palinkas and Rossi despite objections by the Tech Comm.  I would say that if there's anyone absent when the vote takes place or abstentions then it'll be the snake.

 

[40UP]

With Spain, Portugal and Argentina federations expelled from FITASC have all their voting powers been lost?

 

[jwpzx9r]

Phil that being the case it is the rank and file shooters who at the end of the day will be the final arbiters at to whether this proposal once effected is a success. If they don't turn up to shoot then the house of cards falls and since the vast majority of the shooters are simply making up the numbers if these changes do not prove popular they will not shoot it. As to Mr Plinker if he attends the competition in Morocco there may well be a chance to find out if he is, as you say, bomb proof !

 

[ips]

its quite simple imo few if any trap shooters will carry on with it if snake is brought in because it ain't trap like that its sporting.

 

[Dog Tyred]

By eck! It's just like Game of Thrones. A FITASC Winter is coming

DT

 

[Dog Tyred]

According to an email I have just received from Peter Croft the proposal for the Line (snake) system is predominantly for high entry events such as the euro and world championships and a few international Grand Prix events and will run in alongside the existing system.

So at a national level there will not be any changes to the current format unless the national governing body insists on it.

So that's alright then

A test event has been organised in Italy for march and only after this will the Tech Committee make a decision as to whether it should be adopted as an alternative but parallel system to the existing format.

DT

 

[Dog Tyred]

For those of you not on the BICTSF emailing list you can find a full explanation of the recent trial in Italy here http://www.bictsf.com/news/2015/11/24/ut-line-system-snake-explained/54/

DT

 

[PhilR]

According to an email I have just received from Peter Croft the proposal for the Line (snake) system is predominantly for high entry events such as the euro and world championships and a few international Grand Prix events and will run in alongside the existing system.

So at a national level there will not be any changes to the current format unless the national governing body insists on it.

So that's alright then

A test event has been organised in Italy for march and only after this will the Tech Committee make a decision as to whether it should be adopted as an alternative but parallel system to the existing format.

DT

I've had the email too and here it is.

Dear All,
 
Please find below an extract from the FITASC President concerning the proposed line(snake) system for UT. 
 
 
             "At the meeting of last 14th November in Italy, upon proposal of the Italian federation FITAV, it was unanimously decided to  make a full-scale test of UT 'in line', on the occasion of an International Grand Prix of UT next 23 - 24 April 2016 in Trap Concaverde in Lonato (counting for the European and World Cups 2016).
             If this Grand Prix in Lonato turns out to be successful, the UT technical Commission has been delegated to decide democratically if the European UT 2016 in Hungary may be organized with the system in line."

This should be a good event,hopefully with good prizes, and I would urge as many of you as possible to attend, if you can, to form an opinion of the line system.

It is important to know that the decision on whether this is adopted,or not, rests solely with the UT Commission. M.Palinkas has stated that if the UT Commission don't approve it then it will not happen. Steve Dawkes sits on the UT Commission so you should make your feelings known to him, also to any other members of the Commission you may know. If you have friends in the UT community outside the UK it would be helpful if you contact them for their views and pass any comments on to Steve Dawkes and myself. You must also realize that this proposal is not to replace the current operating system but to offer an alternative for events with large entries. IF adopted both systems will be permitted. I have shot the line system and I must admit that I approached it from a completely negative point of view. It turned out to be not as bad as I'd anticipated BUT it is not UT as we know it.  I hope this clarifies things a little bit. If you feel inclined to make your feelings known to FITASC please do it in a constructive way,using reasoned factual argument rather than an emotional rant.  Kindest regards,
 
Peter Croft.

 
 
Further to the above Compak Sporting was original shot in squads and the 'snake' system was introduced to run in parallel and now that's all there is.  I'm sure our sporting shooters can comment further but it seemed EJ Churchill's had a few problems with the snake, scoring and computer system.

I cannot foresee two systems running in parallel for long and once the snake is in that'll all there'll be.  There is no point in selecting teams on the squad system, shoot a target and move, if they're going to compete for GB at events using the snake. The whole concept of waiting and shooting five targets consecutively is totally alien, even to DTL shooters, as they shoot in turn for the five targets then move.

 

[PhilR]

Here's a link to an explanation that's appeared on the BICTSF website.

http://www.bictsf.com/news/2015/11/24/ut-line-system-snake-explained/54/

 

[jwpzx9r]

Phil I have not been able to access the link. However it would be interesting to know how one trains for this new format... don't tell mw you just shoot targets as in normal UT that would not be a good way to train as you well know you don't train for OT shooting DTL!

 

[PhilR]

Phil I have not been able to access the link. However it would be interesting to know how one trains for this new format... don't tell mw you just shoot targets as in normal UT that would not be a good way to train as you well know you don't train for OT shooting DTL!

Try this

http://www.bictsf.com/news/2015/11/24/ut-line-system-snake-explained/54/

 

[Les53]

Nope, it's not for me!

 

[PhilR]

You'd have to travel abroad to another county, Zummerzet, to shoot it Les.

 

[Dog Tyred]

 The whole concept of waiting and shooting five targets consecutively is totally alien, even to DTL shooters, as they shoot in turn for the five targets then move.

Phil

Surely the new proposal is the same as DTL in that respect. Shoot five individual targets from the same stand (each individual target being shot only after the next four stands have shot their individual targets) and then move on one stand. The only ones to loose out are shooters 1,2,3 and 4 at the start of each day as they have less shooters between each of their individual shots.

DT