No bird.

[Worcs]

Sorry if this a question that has been answered a thousand time already but I've been told conflicting answers at different shoots.

shooting ESP, A then B on report, if you hit the first target and the second is a no bird, do you take the pair again and the first kill doesn't count? i.e. A = kill, B = No bird. Pair again, A = loss B = kill. 1 point scored or 2?

 

[Bebo]

Report pair and it is first bird established, so two points.  Simultaneous pairs and nothing is established so it would be 1 point in those circumstances.

 

[Worcs]

Report pair and it is first bird established, so two points.  Simultaneous pairs and nothing is established so it would be 1 point in those circumstances.

So could you take 2 shots at the second bird (B) if it's already established that you hit  A? Or is that just very unsportsmanlike!?

 

[Richard59]

ESP, report pair 

first target kill / loss as called, if second target was a no bird (scorers call ) scorer should then clearly say "no bird, repeat pair first bird established as killed" if you are not sure if it's a hit / loss do ask. In my limited experience in English Sporting targets are killed or lost not points scored 

In the example you have give both targets have been killed 

So could you take 2 shots at the second bird (B) if it's already established that you hit  A? Or is that just very unsportsmanlike!?

Well if it's a pair report, i.e. The second target released upon you shooting at the first, double barrelling the 2nd target is a tad difficult 

 

[Worcs]

Well if it's a pair report, i.e. The second target released upon you shooting at the first, double barrelling the 2nd target is a tad difficult 

Very true! I have learned a lesson in thinking things through before pressing that submit button 

 

[Traptech]

In my experience on a Report Pair - if the second bird is broken on throwing and called as a "no bird" by the ref you have a repeat pair, first bird killed/established. So you call and shoot at the first bird (kill or loss doesn't matter) then your second shot (kill or loss) at a good report bird is then recorded on the score sheet to complete the pair.

Simultaneous pairs are always a straight repeat pair - nothing established - regardless of the fact you may have hit one of them.

 

[wylye]

What about trailing pairs then or 'raff' pairs if the second target to appear is a 'no-bird'?

 

[Will Hewland]

What about trailing pairs then or 'raff' pairs if the second target to appear is a 'no-bird'?

Same as sim pair I believe. 

I love how you said "Raff" pair to avoid the confusion.  A Rafale pair is often described by referees as a Raphael pair, which relates to an artist or a mutant ninja turtle. 

 

[JonSkeet2]

Hi Worcs,

On a report pair If the second target is deemed a no bird and you have hit the first then it is scored as a hit\kill.  You then repeat the pair but have to be seen to shoot the pair as they are presented.  You can miss the first target but it's still a hit on the card.  If you make no attempt to shoot the first and take 2 shots at the second I personally would issue you a warning and score a loss even if you hit it.

Raff are same as simmo but don't exist in ESP, that's FITASC.

Jon.

 

[wylye]

OK. I knew that. I was trying to make it simple.   Then we won't call it a 'raff' pair we will call it a trailng pair. What happens if the second target is a 'no-bird'? I need the page number from the manual and the para number :wink:

Same as sim pair I believe. 

I love how you said "Raff" pair to avoid the confusion.  A Rafale pair is often described by referees as a Raphael pair, which relates to an artist or a mutant ninja turtle. 

Are you referring to the target description or the referee?

 

[Will Hewland]

OK. I knew that. I was trying to make it simple.   Then we won't call it a 'raff' pair we will call it a trailng pair. What happens if the second target is a 'no-bird'? I need the page number from the manual and the para number :wink:

Are you referring to the target description or the referee?

As I say, a Raff pair is same as a sim pair for the rules I believe. 

 

[Nimbusgb]

You can't double barrel the second bird on a report pair unless you load 3 rounds because the second bird is only released after the first shot is heard.

Rafael pair is two birds from the same trap, released automatically as fast as the trap will cycle without waiting for a report. Entirely possible in ESP and rules are the same as a sim pair.

A sim pair you can double barrel the 'second' bird but as a no bird causes 'nothing established' you'll still only score 1 if you hit one of the birds.

 

[Will Hewland]

You can't double barrel the second bird on a report pair unless you load 3 rounds because the second bird is only released after the first shot is heard.

Rafael pair is two birds from the same trap, released automatically as fast as the trap will cycle without waiting for a report. Entirely possible in ESP and rules are the same as a sim pair.

A sim pair you can double barrel the 'second' bird but as a no bird causes 'nothing established' you'll still only score 1 if you hit one of the birds.

Rafale! French word meaning a burst, as in following fire. 

 

[Guest]

Report pair and it is first bird established, so two points.  Simultaneous pairs and nothing is established so it would be 1 point in those circumstances.

It's first shot established, you can second barrel the A bird on the repeat pair (so long as you miss it first barrel)

 

[Bebo]

It's first shot established, you can second barrel the A bird on the repeat pair (so long as you miss it first barrel)

Eh?  Why would you do that on a report pair at ESP?

 

[Finners]

So, what if the 1st bird in an on report pair is called a no bird, but is shot and killed as the call is made, but the calling out of "No bird!" may have put the shooter off meaning s/he misses the 2nd bird? 

This does happen. 

 

[jasper]

The first bird is a no bird. Simples. Nothing established. 

Carry on. 

 

[Finners]

The first bird is a no bird . Simples. Nothing established. 

Carry on. 

So it's pair again, nothing established? 

 

[jasper]

Yep.the first bird is a no bird , regardless of weather you shot it or not . Report bird not in play until first target established.