Pattern plate advise

[Westward]

As to pattern plate usage - it is most def suitable for POI and all that is necessary is to hold/mount the gun in the very same manner as when shooting targets.  That's all I do and when I set the trap to mid-height center targets to check POI there has only been one instance where I have had to move the comb and that was to drop the comb a 2mm washer to make smoke.  The biggest mystery in all of this is why a shooting tradition that reveled in bespoke guns is generally incapable of understanding basic gun fitting.  That would be you, England.

So in a nutshell you're telling a multiple world champ that he's... err...wrong. Or am I mistaken?

 

[diver682]

Wonko 

You must shoot alot of clays that dont move then ? or why would you set up your POI on something that dosent move 

 

[westley]

What Ben and Will said. There's a clue in the name pattern plate. Their purpose is for the overly anal with time on their hands to compare patterns, not to test for point of impact.

I had a S x S fitted by the makers Westley Richards, back in the 1970's. Although made right handed it had been cast left. 2 local gunsmiths had bent the stock, having used the 'try gun' in the shop, but the wood just went back during the summer months when the gun was not being used. In frustration I went to the makers in Birmingham. Their stock fitter came from the workshop to the shop front carrying a try gun. We went to the rear of the premises where there were 2 pattern plates and a 30 yard rifle range. The 2 plates were duly whitewashed and we went back to a 16 yard marker.  Shooting as soon as the gun met cheek and shoulder, I shot at each plate in turn. We then went and examined the plates, although the height was OK the pattern was well off to the right. A few adjustments made to the try gun and then shot that at the plates. A quick check of the plates and "Yes, that's fine Sir". 4 weeks later I was due to return to try the gun and collect it. Due to work I was unable to get time off to go and collect the gun so it was sent by Securicor (remember them  ?). I still have the gun to this day and I can honestly say I have NEVER shot as well with any gun that I have ever owned since. Every time you fired a shot, you just knew it was coming down. I only ever shot game with the gun, at 6lbs 2ozs. it is a bit light for clays (even with 21 grams). I have shot some really high birds with the gun, using 32 gram cartridges and never felt any recoil, ever.  Although I wholeheartedly agree with Ben that 'Pattern Plates' are the work of the Devil, in skilled hands they can be a real asset. Whilst all this gunfitting was taking place, there was a College rugby match taking place some thirty yards away across a small stream. I was informed "Oh, they're used to it. We test fire .500 express rifles here too". Sadly they have now moved, having been in those premises since 1812.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I merely commented that the methodology of the plate usage was critical.  I'm not arguing with anyone - just saying there is more to it than just pointing the gun at the plate and pulling the trigger.  POI with any given gunfit/mount is not dependent on the barrels moving unless perhaps the shooter is not controlling the mount the gun properly.  If your body/head is moving relative to the gun when you swing it you are not in control.  You may want to consult the thread on EvoComps for sporting for details.

and a thanks to Westley for a real world example of how it works when people who actually know how to fit a gun become involved in the process.

 

[k80ben]

Pattern plates always cause mixed opinions. I’m not arguing I’m just bringing my opinion and that is from someone who coaches more hours than anyone does or has. 
 

i shoot moving targets so would never fit a gun on one stationary. Recoil is felt differently and the human being reacts differently. 
 

a perfect poi on a pattern plate is rarely correct elsewhere. 
 

i understand the analogy to the past. My great grandad ploughed fields with horses, we moved on from that too. 
 

 

[TRINITY]

a perfect poi on a pattern plate is rarely correct elsewhere. 
 

I will not argue with someone who has far more experience than I will ever have. But I embarked on the process in order to get at least an approximate idea where the problem could be. So I would have thought the exercise would not have been a complete waist of time because it has given me some idea that my gun mount and aim is not where I thought it was.

 

[westley]

Pattern plates always cause mixed opinions. I’m not arguing I’m just bringing my opinion and that is from someone who coaches more hours than anyone does or has. 
 

i shoot moving targets so would never fit a gun on one stationary. Recoil is felt differently and the human being reacts differently. 
 

a perfect poi on a pattern plate is rarely correct elsewhere. 
 

i understand the analogy to the past. My great grandad ploughed fields with horses, we moved on from that too. 
 

I do NOT entirely disagree with you, but prior to my having the gun 'fitted' I was wounding more than killing. After the gun had been altered, and it was clamped for over 2 weeks (because the wood kept bending back), it most certainly did what it was supposed to do and with surprising ease. I recall that one of your video's (and yes, I have watched some of them) shows you making alteration to LoP and comb height and also mentions balance. I do presume that after making those alterations, you did watch the pupil actually shoot it. Unfortunately those facilities were not available in the middle of Birmingham, but I will guarantee that the stock fitters of Westley Richards since 1812 will collectively, have fitted more guns, rifles and shotguns, than I suspect you could equal. This of course was at a time when, if you went to a gun maker who also had a shooting ground, you would use a combination of plate and clays.  I would have thought that even you would still try to get a gun to shoot where the shooter is looking  ?

 

[k80ben]

I do NOT entirely disagree with you, but prior to my having the gun 'fitted' I was wounding more than killing. After the gun had been altered, and it was clamped for over 2 weeks (because the wood kept bending back), it most certainly did what it was supposed to do and with surprising ease. I recall that one of your video's (and yes, I have watched some of them) shows you making alteration to LoP and comb height and also mentions balance. I do presume that after making those alterations, you did watch the pupil actually shoot it. Unfortunately those facilities were not available in the middle of Birmingham, but I will guarantee that the stock fitters of Westley Richards since 1812 will collectively, have fitted more guns, rifles and shotguns, than I suspect you could equal. This of course was at a time when, if you went to a gun maker who also had a shooting ground, you would use a combination of plate and clays.  I would have thought that even you would still try to get a gun to shoot where the shooter is looking  ?

I agree  on the westley figures I also know that in these days they would all be wrong and need re fitting to suit modern times. 
 

not to fussed on shooting where we look, as with the perfect fit and modern technique we will place the fitted gun where we want using full full barrel awareness 

 

[westley]

I will concede that the fit of a S x S is totally different to that of an over and under, I can only imagine those people that bought one of their 'Ovundo' models,  never actually managed to hit anything with it  ?

 

[westley]

Watch a lot of (not the best) sporting shooters and they have varying degrees of contact pressure with the stock. Some barely connect with the wood. Others vary it on different target presentations. Can’t say for trap, but perhaps as it’s always an away target there is better discipline to really connect with the comb before even calling pull (or yelling at that speaker thingy). 

There is a video of an American shooting one of their many 'Championships' and there is an obvious gap between cheek and gun, seemed to work for him though  ?

 

[Will Hewland]

There is a video of an American shooting one of their many 'Championships' and there is an obvious gap between cheek and gun, seemed to work for him though  ?

I’m not saying non contact = missing. If you can hover your face over the gun in the exact same place consistently it will work. I’m saying that if you VARY where your face ends up on different days, at different targets or just randomly, then inconsistent  results happen. 

 

[Wonko the Sane]

OK - last try at this

A proper gun mount (to me) is supposed to provide a fixed relationship, no matter what form that might take, between the meat and the gun to insure consistent results (see Will above).  That means the gun shoots to the same poi whether it is moving or stationary.  That also means the type of gun and/or use is immaterial to the fitting process so long as that gun is always mounted in the same manner by the shooter to whom it is fitted.

Exactly like a rifle's sights.  They shoot to the same poi regardless of motion or lack of it.  A proper gun mount provides the "sights" for the shooter/gun combo.  Moving or not if the "sights" stay in alignment the gun shoots to the same poi.

y'all have a nice day nice day now, heah?

 

[diver682]

OK - last try at this

A proper gun mount (to me) is supposed to provide a fixed relationship, no matter what form that might take, between the meat and the gun to insure consistent results (see Will above).  That means the gun shoots to the same poi whether it is moving or stationary.  That also means the type of gun and/or use is immaterial to the fitting process so long as that gun is always mounted in the same manner by the shooter to whom it is fitted.

Exactly like a rifle's sights.  They shoot to the same poi regardless of motion or lack of it.  A proper gun mount provides the "sights" for the shooter/gun combo.  Moving or not if the "sights" stay in alignment the gun shoots to the same poi.

y'all have a nice day nice day now, heah?

If you think your right and it makes you happy, crack on 

Have a lovely day 

 

[Luke_(NL)]

I will not argue with someone who has far more experience than I will ever have. But I embarked on the process in order to get at least an approximate idea where the problem could be. So I would have thought the exercise would not have been a complete waist of time because it has given me some idea that my gun mount and aim is not where I thought it was.

Missing the clay tends to tell me that every single time

Personally I don't think a pattern plate is useless. It can be if one is "rifling" the gun and making a shot that wouldn't come close to an actual shot at a clay, but if you try and stay true to what you do when on the range or field (mount and shoot fairly instinctively) it will give you a better understanding of where you "aim" vs. where you shoot. Hopefully both align, but that sadly isn't par for everyone's course. Besides that, even if you wouldn't obtain anything useful in terms of POA / POI, you will get a better sense of the actual spread of you shot-column, which has helped me in realizing how much more lead (in front, not Pb) I need just in terms op optimizing shot placement alone. 

But then I also think an Ergosign is worth my time and money

 

[sacraf]

sacraf  If pattern plates are so useless, why do both perazzi and beretta have purpose built ones which they use to fit stocks on made to measure shotguns??

 

[Lloyd]

This is a fascinating debate. Not one I can add anything to really as I haven’t used a pattern plate and even if I had, I doubt my limited shooting experience would add any value. But that probably goes for all my forum comments to be fair. 

Anyways... I’ve never been one to be found short of an opinion on something I know nothing about.

It does make sense to me that shooting a stationary object in order to perfect gun fit, POA/POI will be somewhat limited in its effectiveness.

As mentioned above, Perazzi et.al use pattern plate to fit a gun. Why? Who knows but Perazzi, but I’d hazard a guess that a lack of sporting clay facilities in the company car park might be dictating their “preferred” method.

Manuel Ricardo uses a trap layout for his gun fitting. Fine if you’re a trap shooter or your objective is to get better at shooting going away targets.

I’ve had various attempts at gun fit, initially I was firm in my belief that a perfect gun fit was  just a placebo. To some extent I still think this is true, but I’ve definitely found gun fit to be more helpful than I originally assumed it would be.

Whilst I was initially skeptical I was certain that an off the shelf gun wouldn’t fit me particularly well, being a short ar$€ at 1.68m and with my cheek firm against the comb, I’d see nothing but the top lever. This was quickly remedied by a very soft mount to the face and removal of the but pad. It was no surprise that this felt more comfortable but really didn’t think it made much difference to my shooting abilities per se. That said, I don’t shoot all that much, even without lockdowns getting in the way, so maybe lack of experience meant I wasn’t feeling the benefits of the modifications?

Anyway, later on, I began to look at where my eye was in relation to the rib laterally. It was off, so I put more effort into turning my nose into the comb. Some very experienced and accomplished shots advised that whilst this is a done thing, it shouldn’t feel forced, which it did. So I started to look at increasing the cast. 

Anyways, to cut what has already become a long story short, some further tweaks and a gun fit session at Honesberie I ended up with some dimensions to work from and modified the stock on my F16. I also modified the grip whilst I was at it to further improve comfort.

The nett result of this is a gun which “shoots where I look” I honestly doubted that phrase, and it isn’t entirely true, well not for me anyway that the gun shoots where I’m looking because I have a sense of looking in more than one place at a time. The clay and the gap (when a gap is needed). For a going away, in-comer or a teal at the top of its trajectory, I’m pretty much shooting a very slow near stationary target. In fact I find it much easier to hit an in-comer or going away when they’re farther away. Sure, when they are close they look big, but the perception of speed increases. Far away they’re not moving much so to speak, so can be more of a rifle shot. Or... a pattern plate shot

So... I’m not sure a pattern plate would be all that useful or all that useless for that matter. Just another tool for shooters to obsess about in the search for missing talent 

 

[Savage10fp]

Once Bywell website is up and running again? Great article from a Krieghoff factory visit!

 

[Westward]

 but if you try and stay true to what you do when on the range or field (mount and shoot fairly instinctively) it will give you a better understanding of where you "aim" vs. where you shoot. Hopefully both align, but that sadly isn't par for everyone's course.

I don't disagree Luke, but what if you're not hitting where you expect? What do you change?

It strikes me that the POI/POA rifling the gun brigade (eg trap shooters) expect to mount the gun and have the rib/eye relationship correct through fitting and adjusting the stock. I think that a lot of sporting folks though align the rib with eye as they bring the gun into the cheek. That way gun fit isn't quite so critical but they can still point the gun accurately. Right or wrong I can't say for certain, but it's what I do and I seem to be able to mount almost any standard standard sporter.

 

[Luke_(NL)]

I don't disagree Luke, but what if you're not hitting where you expect? What do you change?

Height and/or alignment of the comb on a standard adjustable, and/or a few mill onto/off the buttplate. I haven't had to adjust for left and right yet, but maybe that's just luck in my selection of guns. I don't want to restart a debate on whether an adjustable comb does the same as "cast" (ymmv) but for me three things need to be right, stockwise: The fit of the butt into my shoulder, my cheek on the stock (and thus relation of right eye to rib) and the grip of the gun.

If I can get all three right, it shoots where I look. The Ergosign should sort my qualms about the grip (or cause issues, depending who you ask) and I think that as an added bonus, being able to move the butt to and fro a few mill should make me happier too: We were shooting in -10C one week, and then in +18C the other week. The difference in clothing at those extremes made me want to shift the butt outward as I missed a bunch over the top when it wasn't freezing. Shooters who have more horizontal stock / cheekpiece will suffer less from what i call headshift, but if the stock is angled where your head goes makes enough of a difference in how much of the rib you see.        

 

[Savage10fp]

https://www.midlandsgunservices.com/custom-stocks

"You are then able to return to our facility to test your new stock. You can test the stock in our custom made test facility using a pattern plate. From here small adjustments can be made if necessary"