Podimore Selection shoot April 19/20

[sarachambers]

I apologise I used "equal difficulty" in one post and "similar overall difficulty" in the other. For the avoidance of doubt, I mean the latter - broadly comparable, similar.

What I don't mean is Southdown - 57 scores of 90plus; and Podimore - 2 scores of 90plus.

I think good course setters should have an idea of the scores that they will get at a shoot - I doubt they'll be spot on as different weathers and turnout of shooters affects scores, but i do know that if Steve Lovatt thinks he'll have 7 in the 90s and a winning score of 95, I wouldn't bet against him.

I'm not saying the shoot organisers should be given prescriptive directions, I just wonder if any direction is given.

 

[maddmatt]

Why not have a team of course setters, say 3, who go to the grounds that tender for the selection shoots and help that ground owner set a course? That way you could, in theory, build courses of similar difficulty but still have the variety that each ground presents? Just an idea...

 

[Steve Lovatt]

pick the teams from the cpsa top twenty !!! surely a true and real account of how people are shooting ,,,,,,,wink ,wink 

 

[maddmatt]

Or stop team events altogether... Shooting is after all an individual pursuit, when was the last time the top 3 shooters in the Country represented England let alone team GB? It's been covered on other threads on this forum but the truth is we (over recent years) have never had the top 3 shooters in the same team at the same time. Absolutely no disrespect to the current team members but its the cold hard truth.

 

[Hamster]

pick the teams from the cpsa top twenty !!! surely a true and real account of how people are shooting ,,,,,,,wink ,wink 

There is merit in what you say but I'll wager even the top 20 will have people who won't necessarily want the team place because of the commitment needed.

 

[maddmatt]

In fact this all stems from County teams and inter county events. There is a general apathy across Counties and for some unexplained reason, people who make the County Team are often ridiculed, this then sets the tone going forward. I have personally seen a GB Team member ridiculed for getting his badge! Not what we should be teaching our youngsters...

The top 20 could be the way forward if they stiffen the rules for getting into the top 20, it should be based on at least 1,000 targets shot from at least 6 different grounds and should include the English AND British Open Championships. Workable? Don't see why not...

 

[shootinguru]

Something to think about!  Grounds put on shoots to earn a living its a business.

If you want a selection shoot to cater for just  team hopefuls then charge them £500.00 each  and put up a LARGE notice to say

C & B shoters bugger off! this shoot is too hard for you and we don't want you!

On the other hand if you are a ground thats trying to earn a living, put on targets that will keep 90% of them happy and the majority will come back another day  DON'T put on targets for 10-20 shooters looking for a team place because they will only come to your ground once every year or two when you hold a selection shoot. 

 

[maddmatt]

So why not use the top 20 and don't bother with selection shoots, that way the grounds can do what they like and won't get slammed when they put on a soft/hard shoot?

 

[chubby]

Matt, its only an England team after all, lots of travel not, ie Scotland or Ireland reved: I think a lot of our TOP shots only do them as a gauge to how they stand.

 

[sarachambers]

Problem is it's very easy to distort averages if you shoot the "right grounds".

All it would do is put pressure on grounds to throw soft targets.

Or the ones who want to be in the team would flick to certain grounds and those who don't would continue shooting where they want. Personally, I wouldn't boycott the likes or Orston, Westfield etc in favour of the easy grounds simply to get in the team.

 

[Will Hewland]

I think the top 20 thing is a great idea. BUT you have to clarify the rules for validity to make the top 20. I think it should be a minimum 2000 targets (20 events) and at least 8 different grounds.

 

[sarachambers]

Ok, so you now need to think about raw averages and also about excluding grounds that people own or are associated with... It's getting more complex by the minute.

 

[Hamster]

I think the top 20 thing is a great idea. BUT you have to clarify the rules for validity to make the top 20. I think it should be a minimum 2000 targets (20 events) and at least 8 different grounds.

I can understand your reasoning but it's kind of getting more complicated as Sara said which is what we are trying to avoid. Also I think it's perfectly possible that someone who has shot 1800 targets over 6 grounds could genuinely be better than someone who manages the 2000 & 8 ground format and ends up with a lower average yet would get waved through by default ?!

 

[Steve Lovatt]

how about we do a lottery ststem , sell tickets to anyone interested , first 15 pulled out can shoot , then the proceeds to me as it was my idea , ha ha 

 

[maddmatt]

Well if you make the English & British Opens mandatory and then you have to have shot 1,000 targets at least from 6 grounds you will find it averages itself out. It certainly doesn't have to be complicated, plus you would still have to apply for a place, the team manager then gets to do his job and can select the team based on a lot more information then the current format.

 

[maddmatt]

Steve, do you think the current system is fine as it is, or do you think team events are pointless? OR, do you have another way the team could be selected from a ground owners perspective (and no the lottery idea doesn't count  :biggrin: )

 

[Clynt]

There is little wrong with the format as it stands but are we sure we should let everyone whoever and at any level enter the selection procedure ? it could be argued that anyone for the men's team should be carrying a average which is relative to the requirement lets say 80 something ? surely the shooting based companies and the CPSA could muster some form of finance for these shoots to take place on virgin sites ? with qualified referees , all assuring everybody gets the same quality, accuracy of targets, compliance to current rules at reg shoots ? when you compare it with other sports of national representation it does seem a tad rustic. 

We run county teams from where we reside so to me it would make a lot sense to set up a system of achievement starting at county team, then selection to area teams and then from those to national teams ? this may work like this ? 

1- select county teams from averages

2- select area  teams of 15, say from scores at the inter counties 

3- select national team from the placements at combined area shoot ( all shoot on same day ?? ) on a identical format to the home international ?

this might give county level shooting the achievement and position it deserves ? 

 

[Jim Wheeler]

a long read this, and the same discussion I've heard for years. I have no answers, same as every-one else,,however,, my tuppence worth,, ,,the 'team selection' by a manager? ,,not gonna work,, old pals act for a start, (look at man united,! ) or a committee, same but different reasons/excuses. has to be on shooter merit/ability,, such as  a rolling percentage of the last 5,maybe 10,,last registered shoots,,,DROP the 'selection shoot '  bit,,, and you get rid of the moaning on a thread!,, also a reflection of CURRENT form,, not a selection shoot from 6 months ago,,,hope you with my thinking here,,,,,

and , as has been said,, have  an "advisor" help the range setter,,a 'b' class guy who can input a bit on his feeling for the targets set?

there are rough guidelines for FSP,, possibly also ESP? as target difficulties, but you always at the mercy of the interpretation of "rules"  !

I was at Chard,,, lucky my gun was at home!!!

 

[Steve Lovatt]

i dont think there is much wrong with the system as it is , the problem this year is the first two have been totally opposite types of shoots , now i dont think one is right and one is wrong , as i have said many a time a person would not set up a trap and think thats a crap target and leave it on , they must all think they are good enough for the job , however us as clay shooters always have a personal preference , i used to be the wprlds worst at saying " whats the point of that " but then quickly learnt that it was my job as a shooter to hit the bloody things .

i can see clynts point of view but as soon as you start talking greenfield sites the price is going to rocket and become prohibitive to do 

i personnally think when i set up our selection shoot in june i will go for good combinations that will sort scores out where they should be and entertain the b and c class which history shows us are alot less on these events than normal sundays for some reason 

 

[chubby]

20 events at £38, then you get to go to Scotland or Ireland WOW who would do that? or 4 events and you shoot for GB and get to go Abroad?