Prize money.

[wynno]

One drawback I can see due to larger prize fund is an increase in 'chip begging' , unallowed coaching, unallowed practice on ' a couple of those I missed' , score card altering and bullying of refs, without the latter being competent to deal with such matters.

Regards

Leigh

This.....

We have all seen it happen, and done absolutely nothing about it. Who would stand up and protect the scorer when he/she is being blatantly bullied. I saw it happen at meadow Croft last year, an ex army shooter was on his last pair after hitting all the others, called pull, the wind pushed the first target lower than he expected causing him to miss over the top, he broke his gun and demanded it to be a no bird. I was right behind the female scorer and told her to stand by her decision of pair lost, the shooter just kept on and on, in the end she said pair again.

Now a lot of you know me, I’m 5ft 5in and he is 6ft plus, size can be intimidating, after he came off the stand I challenged him and told him that’s cheating, an ex England sporting and GB fitasc veteran also said the same, unsurprisingly the shooter said nothing took his card and walked away.

If there’s the possibility of big money to be won, this WILL become a regular occurrence.

 

[Will Hewland]

I said years ago that it would be so much easier if there was no option to go Targets Only. And to get the prize money needed, you only have to make the comp fee about £3 as everybody would be paying in. But it would have to be rigidly enforced to avoid controversy. Certainly anybody new to the sport wouldn’t give it a second thought but there would be some objection to enforcing it now from some of course. 

 

[TRINITY]

I am not talking about sponsored events by third parties. But I am sure any ground running competitions where a prize money pot is mandatory, would get far less entrants than grounds running simple non prize money events.  I have not been shooting as long as many of you but from what I can gather the vast majority are in it for fun and enjoyment and dont see the sport as a way to earn a financial benefit.

If the top shots want to earn their bucks, let's organise shoots for them where they put their money where their mouths are. For instance 100 bird event £100 prize fee on top of entry cost. Winner takes all.  Wonder how many would go for that. 

 

[Westward]

This.....

We have all seen it happen, and done absolutely nothing about it. Who would stand up and protect the scorer when he/she is being blatantly bullied. I saw it happen at meadow Croft last year, an ex army shooter was on his last pair after hitting all the others, called pull, the wind pushed the first target lower than he expected causing him to miss over the top, he broke his gun and demanded it to be a no bird. I was right behind the female scorer and told her to stand by her decision of pair lost, the shooter just kept on and on, in the end she said pair again.

Now a lot of you know me, I’m 5ft 5in and he is 6ft plus, size can be intimidating, after he came off the stand I challenged him and told him that’s cheating, an ex England sporting and GB fitasc veteran also said the same, unsurprisingly the shooter said nothing took his card and walked away.

If there’s the possibility of big money to be won, this WILL become a regular occurrence.

I believe he's was immediately banned from the ground and quite rightly too. Guess who his coach is?

As for the topic I'm not sure I'd want to put another £5 in the pot but then I'm not much of a gambler. I think I managed a joint 2nd in class last year; don't know what's in the envelope as I haven't been back, but I'd be surprised if it's more than a tenner. 

 

[bostonmick]

Prize money is a double edged sword.constant complaints about the ammount from the few.i shoot for pleasure and if and when I do go to a competition I shoot birds only.if you raise the prices to a level as suggested it will in real terms mean that the casual shooter will avoid the shoot.and I think you may find that will make the day unviable for the ground owners as they need numbers to make it financially viable.i remember when prizes were a trophy or a piece of cut glassware and the pride of winning.a far better way the current system.

 

[Nick Selby]

As others have mentioned, I suspect it will lead to more people pushing/going over the boundaries of acceptable and honest behaviour. Sadly, even a few quid in winnings can and will test someone’s integrity....
 

I haven’t shot comps for some time, mostly because I don’t shoot regularly enough to make me anything close to a contender. If I were to shoot comps, I’d be better off buying 5 lines on the lottery with the extra £10 as I would have a greater chance of winning....

 

[Bebo]

Birds only for me from now on. I've only ever placed in Class and it makes more economic sense to get 5 shoots for the same price as 4 rather than get the odd handful of change now and again.

 

[tiptop]

Birds only for me from now on. I've only ever placed in Class and it makes more economic sense to get 5 shoots for the same price as 4 rather than get the odd handful of change now and again.

The extra prize money is not a done deal, just something being bandied about to see if people would be interested in trying to increase prize money. Steve has decided to run a trial registered shoot at Westfield with the increased prize fee, to try and gauge if there would be any interest in it. It will still only be the usual £5 difference for normal registered shoots. It would be down to individual grounds anyway if they decided to go with it.

 

[Bebo]

The extra prize money is not a done deal, just something being bandied about to see if people would be interested in trying to increase prize money. Steve has decided to run a trial registered shoot at Westfield with the increased prize fee, to try and gauge if there would be any interest in it. It will still only be the usual £5 difference for normal registered shoots. It would be down to individual grounds anyway if they decided to go with it.

I should probably just go birds only anyway.  I often do, just occasionally get tempted to chuck the extra fiver in.

 

[Mulligan]

I think that this is a particularly bad time to be considering this as it appears that we are expecting a not inconsiderable increase in entry fees, be it comp or b/o, just after coming out of our third lockdown. I have in the past tried both but a change like this would certainly encourage the latter. 

 

[Salopian]

When you consider that many club shoots can put on a 100 bird competition with a small prize fund for £20 or £25 entry fee , it would be very interesting to see what the total  entry numbers would be if we had birds only entry at £20 and competition at £35 - £40 ?

I have no issue with paying the dirty farmer ( Gloucester Old Spot ) because his targets are very good and he does work bloody hard , what I take exception to is lazy ground owners charging the same entry fee for poor targets , no referees , and constant breakdowns .

100 bird practice with the same targets week in and week out , flat batteries , no markers or referees for £35 ! You really are killing the sport.

 

[TRINITY]

100 bird practice with the same targets week in and week out , flat batteries , no markers or referees for £35 

35p per hundred for practice is rapidly becoming the norm. From the stuff I read, that is considered extremely cheap in some parts of England.

Over £50 to spend an hour or so to rattle through 100 practice Clays,  puts the sport out of reach for many already

 

[FloodDefence]

Wouldn’t be for me thanks, I just see it as a thinly veiled experiment to see if we’ll wear being charged a higher entry fee, the big prize will soon be removed however the higher fee will remain in place. If In turn they remove B/O it would probably be back to club shooting all bar the odd occasion for some. I understand ground owners have suffered financially due to the lockdowns but haven’t we all?, some will loose their jobs, some probably already have and I doubt there’ll be too many pay rises doled out this year either, to try and squeeze us that bit more in this current situation just seems a bit greedy.

 

[Freddypip]

Reading between the lines, Flooddefence makes a good point - a really good point.

Is it not for the grounds to decide the prize money based on supply & demand. Will a higher entrance fee & bigger prize fund incraese demand ?

Or am I missing something - Is the £5 towards the prize decided by somebody other than the grounds ?

 

[tiptop]

Reading between the lines, Flooddefence makes a good point - a really good point.

Is it not for the grounds to decide the prize money based on supply & demand. Will a higher entrance fee & bigger prize fund incraese demand ?

Or am I missing something - Is the £5 towards the prize decided by somebody other than the grounds ?

It is for the grounds to decide the prize money. Some could charge £5 some £10. The prize money could be whatever the grounds decided, as long as the difference between comp and birds only is paid back as prize money. The reason it is being discussed and trialled is because people keep moaning that prize money never increases. At the end of the day people have the choice of comp or birds only, that will only ever change if the CPSA decide on a rule change to get rid of birds only, which I can't see happening.

 

[vmax1010]

The birds only pull in punters like me who have no interest or chance of winning prize money so increasing the number of shooter's going through the ground and keeping it viable, it was said that some top shots used to do the rounds of local shoots to collect the prize money or wages as one person was reputed to have said 

 

[Nimbusgb]

This argument has been going on longer than most of us have been in the sport!

My take on it is:

Unlike the US, the number of shooters is quite limited. There is only so much 'pie' to be had and there are quite a few grounds trying to make a living from clay shooting.

The cost of running a shoot, even a straw baler, is not insignificant. The UK legislative landscape means insurance and noise and NIMBYS and land rent and and and. If you want a clubhouse and facilities the cost skyrockets. All this comes down to tight margins for ground operators. Some people seem to think that ground owners are rolling in money. I know a lot who barely make ends meet, eeking out a living by working their arses off. Some have a decent income but they have invested millions.

What this means is that grounds want to get shooters around the stands and paying for each target shot. Like it or not, the have-a-go lot, the guy and his mates who go shooting once or twice a month or the guy who never enters a competition make up a LOT of a grounds income.  

Over a year the cost of a target at a shoot ( an 'organised, regular ground with ground staff and a clubhouse and an ePos system and decent traps and insurance and electricity on site ) is currently running around 30p per target. ( the margins are about the same as most other businesses ) So grounds are charging about £35 per hundred targets and making a whole £5 profit off you for an hour-and-a-half to two hours entertainment. To be frank it's laughable. On a Sunday, getting say 250 people around your ground ( a busy day ) you make a grand. As a business that's not exactly rolling in it is it. Monday to Friday numbers are way down on that!

Running a competition is, if anything a cost sink for a ground. 10 to 15 staff for the day, even uni students want paying for sitting in a rainy, muddy field when it's 5 degrees out and the wind chill is another 5! There's fees to the National Organisation or FITASC or anyone else. £35 to £40 for a mornings entertainment is reasonable but jack the price to £60 to £70 and the income drops off. A lot of people simply stop shooting as much.

I would say, given that most competitions at National Level are over subscribed you could happily charge £1 per target, You'd get the more professional shooters in and cull the field to the really dedicated ones.

But an additional £5 - £10 per round of club level competition is going to chase the mildly competitive shooter into either not competing or shooting B/O and B/O pays the ground owners bills.

I for one would simply stop shooting Comps, I can track my own averages, shoot with mates and we can run our own round much as people do at golf. It's not that I can't afford it but I don't see the point of paying £5 to some sh*t hot shooter just because he is on the ground at the same time as me. The ground owner is happy as he is turning over targets.

 

[TRINITY]

This argument has been going on longer than most of us have been in the sport!

My take on it is:

Unlike the US, the number of shooters is quite limited. There is only so much 'pie' to be had and there are quite a few grounds trying to make a living from clay shooting.

The cost of running a shoot, even a straw baler, is not insignificant. The UK legislative landscape means insurance and noise and NIMBYS and land rent and and and. If you want a clubhouse and facilities the cost skyrockets. All this comes down to tight margins for ground operators. Some people seem to think that ground owners are rolling in money. I know a lot who barely make ends meet, eeking out a living by working their arses off. Some have a decent income but they have invested millions.

What this means is that grounds want to get shooters around the stands and paying for each target shot. Like it or not, the have-a-go lot, the guy and his mates who go shooting once or twice a month or the guy who never enters a competition make up a LOT of a grounds income.  

Over a year the cost of a target at a shoot ( an 'organised, regular ground with ground staff and a clubhouse and an ePos system and decent traps and insurance and electricity on site ) is currently running around 30p per target. ( the margins are about the same as most other businesses ) So grounds are charging about £35 per hundred targets and making a whole £5 profit off you for an hour-and-a-half to two hours entertainment. To be frank it's laughable. On a Sunday, getting say 250 people around your ground ( a busy day ) you make a grand. As a business that's not exactly rolling in it is it. Monday to Friday numbers are way down on that!

Running a competition is, if anything a cost sink for a ground. 10 to 15 staff for the day, even uni students want paying for sitting in a rainy, muddy field when it's 5 degrees out and the wind chill is another 5! There's fees to the National Organisation or FITASC or anyone else. £35 to £40 for a mornings entertainment is reasonable but jack the price to £60 to £70 and the income drops off. A lot of people simply stop shooting as much.

I would say, given that most competitions at National Level are over subscribed you could happily charge £1 per target, You'd get the more professional shooters in and cull the field to the really dedicated ones.

But an additional £5 - £10 per round of club level competition is going to chase the mildly competitive shooter into either not competing or shooting B/O and B/O pays the ground owners bills.

I for one would simply stop shooting Comps, I can track my own averages, shoot with mates and we can run our own round much as people do at golf. It's not that I can't afford it but I don't see the point of paying £5 to some sh*t hot shooter just because he is on the ground at the same time as me. The ground owner is happy as he is turning over targets.

The one point I would argue with i. I disagree there is a cost of running a club house. If a club house is well run it will financially contribute to the shoot. If the ground owners cant make their clubhouse pay, they should get someone competent to run the operation or shut it down. 

 

[Nimbusgb]

The one point I would argue with i. I disagree there is a cost of running a club house. If a club house is well run it will financially contribute to the shoot. If the ground owners cant make their clubhouse pay, they should get someone competent to run the operation or shut it down. 

Cost of building a half decent clubhouse? £250k? The capital value of that has to be 2k a month alone. My point is that someone has to invest their money and will expect at least 5% return on that investment ( most will want more, significantly more )  

 

[TRINITY]

Cost of building a half decent clubhouse? £250k? The capital value of that has to be 2k a month alone. My point is that someone has to invest their money and will expect at least 5% return on that investment ( most will want more, significantly more )  

Anyone with the slightest business acumen will have done their costings . If they make an in depth and detailed business plan and their calculated returns dont match their capital investment, they shouldn't do it. It's their ground, their business and their call. If they get it wrong why should shooters have to pay over the odds to help bail them out.