Sporting Shoots 2021. Reports and discussion.

[Sian]

Went to EJC for the Compak yesterday.  Enjoyed my squad and the course. We did have a few issues with the voice release system on two of our layouts which was extremely frustrating and does absolutely nothing for your concentration.  It happened when I shot the big Compak comp there.  Obviously they are temperamental which I can relate to.

 

[antse7en]

Envelope to be collected from the shoot at Horne yesterday which is nice. Felt like I shot terribly in places too, which shows you just never know. 

Looking forward to Churchills this week and also strongly considering the two hour drive up to Kibworth on Friday too - shows the bug is well and truly back! That’d make 5 reg in ~2 weeks since getting back on the clays. 

Feels like a good time (considering my consistency in scores at the moment) to get a little coaching refinement in to find those next couple of clays but unfortunately zero availability has put paid to that until next year. 

 

[Bebo]

Churchill's today for me.  I found it a tough shoot. Three sim pairs all of which I struggled with to differing degrees.  Few other targets that I couldn't find consistently either.  Overall a pretty poor performance.

 

[Will Hewland]

Churchill's today for me.  I found it a tough shoot. Three sim pairs all of which I struggled with to differing degrees.  Few other targets that I couldn't find consistently either.  Overall a pretty poor performance.

I also found it testing as no easy stands really. Dropped about 5 that felt a bit sloppy, but that is what happens when it’s testing. Finished 86, could have been worse. 
 

Only one stand I thought was a bit unfair, stand 6, the sim pair of R-L. Both good targets, would have been fine O/R. If you shot the lower one first, then the high looper was diving down against the bank and almost invisible. If you shot that first, the lower crosser was disappearing stage left. Probably OK if you could really see and shoot quickly.

HG was 91, from the only AA shooter to straight stand 6..

 

[antse7en]

Churchill’s for me too - had a rubbish day by all accounts.

Arrived to realise I’ve lost my ear moulds, assume left them at Horne over the weekend. So spent the shoot fiddling with my ears and dealing with a ringing sensation in the right after every shot. Not ideal.

Actually shot so far under my average being aggravated I think it’ll be struck off as beyond 10%. [edit - way beyond]

Also means I will be skipping tomorrow and the weekend shoots until I get some ears sorted - likely to go for CFGs this time. Meh! 

 

[Sian]

EJC for me too, loved my squad and happy it didn’t rain.   I lost a lot of orange today frustration central and scored nothing on the driven.  Stand 6 I did okay with but the two I lost were in the dark.   If they provide a Hoover I’ll go hoover up the orange bits so I don’t lose the target in the background

 

[philmoss]

Churchill's today for me.  I found it a tough shoot. Three sim pairs all of which I struggled with to differing degrees.  Few other targets that I couldn't find consistently either.  Overall a pretty poor performance.

Looks like the shoot was set within the classification cut offs for each class

 

[Bebo]

Looks like the shoot was set within the classification cut offs for each class

Stick to target setting Phil, you're much better at it than you are at statistics.

Average score in B was 67.79 (that's a C class score).  Average score in A was 77.05 (that's a B class score). Average score in AA was 84 (that's an A class score).

 

[philmoss]

I dont do statistics......

I like to provide a enjoyable set of targets to keep people wanting to improve & be realistic in doing so !.......

Something for all levels & abilities where you wont be like a fish out of water at the bigger events & championships, thats my aim 

 

[tiptop]

To late to worry about statistics, averages, and classification cut offs, as the time for the next classification cut off was 31st Oct.

 

[Daz W]

Looks like the shoot was set within the classification cut offs for each class

In fact if you look at A and B class, there were actually more people that scored below their class cut off than actually scored within their class band. I would normally expect approx 70-80% of AA/A/B class shooters to shoot within their class band , 10-15% to shoot above it, and 10-15% below it. The scores need to fit in a bell curve. If the top scorer in each classification band is shooting within the band, then nobody will ever move up a classification, the only options are stay the same, or move down.

As a easy guide, look at the number of shooters that fall outside their class on the day. If there's more shooting below their classification cut off than above it then the shoot is set too hard, if there's more shooting above the cut off than below, then it's too easy.

 

[Will Hewland]

Yes this “within class cuts off” thing is nonsense as Bebo has pointed out. I shot 57 ESP shoots this last period. 27 of them below my average and 30 above. My scores formed my average by being as much as 9 above it and 11 below it. And I’m more consistent than many shooters. 

 

[philmoss]

In fact if you look at A and B class, there were actually more people that scored below their class cut off than actually scored within their class band. I would normally expect approx 70-80% of AA/A/B class shooters to shoot within their class band , 10-15% to shoot above it, and 10-15% below it. The scores need to fit in a bell curve. If the top scorer in each classification band is shooting within the band, then nobody will ever move up a classification, the only options are stay the same, or move down.

As a easy guide, look at the number of shooters that fall outside their class on the day. If there's more shooting below their classification cut off than above it then the shoot is set too hard, if there's more shooting above the cut off than below, then it's too easy.

This issue always depends on where shooters regulary shoot to get their classification ......some prefer softer targets & some dont !!........

The class system works fine for the fixed disciplines like trap & skeet but the sporting disciplines can be a different game

Yes this “within class cuts off” thing is nonsense as Bebo has pointed out. I shot 57 ESP shoots this last period. 27 of them below my average and 30 above. My scores formed my average by being as much as 9 above it and 11 below it. And I’m more consistent than many shooters. 

Will,

The cut offs are NOT a true reflection in its current form, do you suggest another option ?

 

[Will Hewland]

This issue always depends on where shooters regulary shoot to get their classification ......some prefer softer targets & some dont !!........

The class system works fine for the fixed disciplines like trap & skeet but the sporting disciplines can be a different game

Will,

The cut offs are NOT a true reflection in its current form, do you suggest another option ?

Phil, the cut offs are always right by mathematical definition. If in general shoots get easier or harder then the cut offs simply move. AAA shooters are the top 5% and C class are the lowest 25%. That’s how it works, end of. The only discussion is about each shoot and “was it the right level of difficulty”. Well of course some are harder than others, so if like me you shoot 15+ different grounds then it will average out in a true fashion. Of course if you pick mostly easy or mostly hard shoots, then your classification may be a bit out of kilter compared to others. Until the CPSA adopts my system that judges each shooter by finishing order, not scores, then that’s what we have. 

 

[Daz W]

This issue always depends on where shooters regulary shoot to get their classification ......some prefer softer targets & some dont !!........

I personally don't know anyone who goes specifically to a ground because it's a really tough registered shoot, or anyone that goes to a shoot because its easy. I shoot registered shoots at grounds I don't use to practice. If I shot EJC or AGL twice a week, doing a reg shoot there would not be a true reflection, as I've learnt the target setters style. 

The class system works fine for the fixed disciplines like trap & skeet but the sporting disciplines can be a different game

Will,

The cut offs are NOT a true reflection in its current form, do you suggest another option ?

As you rightly said , Trap and Skeet have to conform to an exact standard and the system works perfectly for them. Sporting is much different and can only realistically be graded upon a national average. I do however, think that classification calculations should omit shooters that shoot less than a certain amount of grounds.

 

[tiptop]

 I do however, think that classification calculations should omit shooters that shoot less than a certain amount of grounds.

...And what figure would you put on the amount of grounds a shooter should/must shoot, to be able to gain a classification?

 Bearing in mind some people might have disabilities or certain health issues that might prevent them from shooting certain grounds due to the terrain, and limit the number of grounds that they can actually shoot. 

 

[Daz W]

...And what figure would you put on the amount of grounds a shooter should/must shoot, to be able to gain a classification?

 Bearing in mind some people might have disabilities or certain health issues that might prevent them from shooting certain grounds due to the terrain, and limit the number of grounds that they can actually shoot. 

Apologies, my last post was worded poorly .  No restriction on the amount of grounds to gain an individual classification, but the scores used to calculate the classification cut off points published quarterly could only use data from shooters who have shot more than 1 ground in that period.  Which ever way the classifications are calculated, there will always be someone who gains from it, and someone who loses. The only way to make it 100% fair would be exactly the same ground layout, same targets, shooting in exactly the same weather conditions etc. Then it would cease to be "sporting" clays.

 

[Bebo]

Phil, the cut offs are always right by mathematical definition. If in general shoots get easier or harder then the cut offs simply move. AAA shooters are the top 5% and C class are the lowest 25%. That’s how it works, end of. The only discussion is about each shoot and “was it the right level of difficulty”. Well of course some are harder than others, so if like me you shoot 15+ different grounds then it will average out in a true fashion. Of course if you pick mostly easy or mostly hard shoots, then your classification may be a bit out of kilter compared to others. Until the CPSA adopts my system that judges each shooter by finishing order, not scores, then that’s what we have. 

This. And if someone does shoot all the softer shoots and ends up in a higher class than their ability warrants who are they actually hurting? They'll never win their class and they are only kidding themselves.

And what is a soft shoot? Some of my worst scores over the last year have been at what is considered an easy shoot. My best have been where there have been some challenging targets. It's all down to what targets suit you and what sort of day you are having.

 

[Daz W]

This. And if someone does shoot all the softer shoots and ends up in a higher class than their ability warrants who are they actually hurting? They'll never win their class and they are only kidding themselves.

And what is a soft shoot? Some of my worst scores over the last year have been at what is considered an easy shoot. My best have been where there have been some challenging targets. It's all down to what targets suit you and what sort of day you are having.

Very true, my PB on a registered was on what I normally believe to be an average difficulty shoot (AGL), but in the worst weather I've ever shot in. Didn't matter to me what everyone else scored, it was my PB.

 

[Sian]

I went off to Bisley Gun Club today, Tony wasn’t working and we decided it would be nice to see Tony Axell and Bob who used to set targets at Southdown.  They are running the DTL there.   The clubhouse is large and comfortable, food good and toilets immaculate.   Very friendly.  I wasn’t really expecting much from myself.   I’ve never shot DTL in competition as it’s pointless for me orange into green and grey sky is just not good for me.  Predictably I shot 50 and missed too many, I either get it first shot or miss.   Although I had a few very long second kills today .  Had a break then went out for the next 50 and my gun was not firing, scrunching on closure so I had to step out.  It appears it was probably a bit of grit and it should be fine.  Supposed to be Barrow and Redricks tomorrow but I am not feeling all that so I think Tony can go on his own.