Sporting shoots. Where - and how did it go?

[philmoss]

Mr. Moss,

 That is a very interesting post !

" The shooter has to fill their details onto a Sheet & by doing so are temporarily covered by the CPSA insurance scheme."

Sorry mate , how crazy is that ? We the membership pay to cover people who cannot be bothered, and risk a situation similar to what happened to Alfie Oldring ?

Reference Insurance cover Fieldsports Britain , last week.

Cheating is unfortunately rife in CPSA Registered shoots I am sad to say , how many AA & A shots do you know who screw their bad scorecards up ?

That by the way is a minor issue , what about big loads , pairs again after no birds , until you get a straight , hard primers, etc etc ad nauseum.

Would you like to hear about coaching on the stand ?

Sorry , not having a go at you Mossy , just being a realist and until it is penalised harshly , it will go on .

I dont make the rules up, just operate within them to the best of our ability & knowledge !!!

Obviously must be doing something right by looking at the entries & shoots awarded since taking over at Barrow Heath  :ahappy:

Also we have signed up quiet a few non cpsa members through the day pass scheme & these are now competition shooters.

As ever, i will never know as much as you BUT dont ever remember being to a shoot set or run by YOU ??

Keep taking the tablets & get out a little more often !!!

 

[schmokinn]

Reference the scorecard issue,i once lost a card at Southern Counties i was in the car park and the wind took it...no hope of retrieving as it was blowing a gale,over the top of the clubhouse and awayi

I informed them what happened but still received a letter from the CPSA as they had obviously been informed that i didn't hand in my card even though the circumstances had been explained to them....so once in 15 years due to miserable gits.

I have noticed a couple of times recently at shoots that list scores by stand that some people have handed in incomplete or failed to shoot all the stands failed to present there card and it been taken from the master sheet.

So i wonder what is the rule on failing to finish because you've decided your score is so crap you don't want it recorded or are deliberately trying to drag your average down by dropping a few stands?

Another reason may be that you want to get somewhere else as we the other day wanted to shoot 4CTC after Meadowcroft but weren't going to make it because of various delays we were going to not shoot the last 3 stands and go but opted in the end to not bother with 4CTC ...where would we have stood with the rules and regs?

 

[Bebo]

My understanding is that your score goes in against the number of targets you shot at.  Loads of people didn't finish the Premier League shoot at West London Shooting School last year for many reasons (it was really busy and took ages, it was absolutely freezing and the targets were particularly hard), so if you look at the score there are lots of incomplete scorecards recorded.

 

[P1Fanatic]

My understanding is that your score goes in against the number of targets you shot at.  Loads of people didn't finish the Premier League shoot at West London Shooting School last year for many reasons (it was really busy and took ages, it was absolutely freezing and the targets were particularly hard), so if you look at the score there are lots of incomplete scorecards recorded.

That was my understanding. Do grounds have to submit scores broken down by stand or can just submit total score & targets shot at only?

Part completed cards are another can of worms. Whats to then stop someone walking the course and shooting the easier stands and leaving the tough stands out? Ok they wont win anything that day but its another way to bolster your scores.

What have I started .. This could have been a thread in itself

 

[Will Hewland]

It's a loophole. It is entirely possible to pick a few easy stands, hand the card in and get scored as a percentage. I don't think anybody does this (probably because they haven't sussed it). I walked off a shoot last year because with three stands remaining there were HUGE queues. I got scored as a percentage of 72 targets shot at.

if you do quit a shoot early due to a broken gun / lack of time etc just make sure the ground record your score as such, otherwise they will often send it in as out of 100. 

 

[Hamster]

Mr. Moss,

 That is a very interesting post !

" The shooter has to fill their details onto a Sheet & by doing so are temporarily covered by the CPSA insurance scheme."

Sorry mate , how crazy is that ? We the membership pay to cover people who cannot be bothered, and risk a situation similar to what happened to Alfie Oldring ?

Reference Insurance cover Fieldsports Britain , last week.

Cheating is unfortunately rife in CPSA Registered shoots I am sad to say , how many AA & A shots do you know who screw their bad scorecards up ?

That by the way is a minor issue , what about big loads , pairs again after no birds , until you get a straight , hard primers, etc etc ad nauseum.

Would you like to hear about coaching on the stand ?

Sorry , not having a go at you Mossy , just being a realist and until it is penalised harshly , it will go on .

Covering a person for insurance for a couple of hours is hardly the crime of the century   it is done in order to encourage them to join, ever been offered free food samples in shopping centres ? How about a free tube of toothpaste by your dentist or tablets for a washing machine ? 

I also really don't get how reverse sandbagging is cheating, yes I do get the argument about sponsorship but on the day you will get zilch and on subsequent days you're likely to get zilch if you are not good enough. I have experienced (possible) card binning once or twice in my entire shooting life, it's not as big a problem as fake news in other words.

I have also yet to witness someone keep blagging no birds till they get a straight, exaggerate much ! As for coaching on the stand, yes it is naughty but doesn't bother me personally, they are just as likely to miss through bollox advice as to hit an extra one  :lol:  fact.

 

[P1Fanatic]

Covering a person for insurance for a couple of hours is hardly the crime of the century   it is done in order to encourage them to join, ever been offered free food samples in shopping centres ? How about a free tube of toothpaste by your dentist or tablets for a washing machine ? 

I also really don't get how reverse sandbagging is cheating, yes I do get the argument about sponsorship but on the day you will get zilch and on subsequent days you're likely to get zilch if you are not good enough. I have experienced (possible) card binning once or twice in my entire shooting life, it's not as big a problem as fake news in other words.

I have also yet to witness someone keep blagging no birds till they get a straight, exaggerate much ! As for coaching on the stand, yes it is naughty but doesn't bother me personally, they are just as likely to miss through bollox advice as to hit an extra one  :lol:  fact.

Its not cheating more unsportsman like behaviour. I just don't get why people would want to do it.

Agreed on the coaching. Usually a lower class shot having a bad stand / round and someone offering some help. Nice refs even offer help if they see you struggling. I really like that part of our sport as entering a competition environment can be a daunting prospect.

 

[Sian]

I have experienced (possible) card binning once or twice in my entire shooting life, it's not as big a problem as fake news in other words.

I don't care, its up to them what they do with their cards at the end of the day because it won't affect me but this happens weekly just as a matter of fact.

 

[Will Hewland]

I don't care, its up to them what they do with their cards at the end of the day because it won't affect me but this happens weekly just as a matter of fact.

Just to be pedantic Sian, if a lot of card binning goes on, it will affect the cut off points for the averages.. So you could say there is a chance it will affect everybody possibly. 

 

[Sian]

Just to be pedantic Sian, if a lot of card binning goes on, it will affect the cut off points for the averages.. So you could say there is a chance it will affect everybody possibly. 

I just don't care anymore about averages - I am better off not worrying about them either mine or anyone else's.  I need to just sort out my own demons and if I do well in my own opinion then I should be happy.    A look at scores put up by a variety of shoots will show you quite  a few who just didn't give in their card.  I think this is more to do with feeling embarrassed by their score rather than trying to cook the books so to speak.

 

[Will Hewland]

I care about my average, but as a measure of how I'm progressing (or regressing). So that means I have to make sure I shoot lots of grounds and hand in every card, or I'm kidding myself..

 

[Sian]

I care about my average, but as a measure of how I'm progressing (or regressing). So that means I have to make sure I shoot lots of grounds and hand in every card, or I'm kidding myself..

I go on how I feel I did, not just the actual score but me shooting the score.  I suppose a slight care about averages just as you say to gauge progress against others as you know I do shoot lots of grounds and many shoots - over 13,000 registered targets showing currently for me in this cycle.

 

[Will Hewland]

I go on how I feel I did, not just the actual score but me shooting the score.  I suppose a slight care about averages just as you say to gauge progress against others as you know I do shoot lots of grounds and many shoots - over 13,000 registered targets showing currently for me in this cycle.

I always said that you'd be really good if you could just shoot a bit more ?

 

[Sian]

I always said that you'd be really good if you could just shoot a bit more ?

I would be a lot better if I could shelve my brain and emotions - hand them in so to speak when I collect my card.  Tony says I will do better once I just shoot for the pure joy of it.

 

[Will Hewland]

I would be a lot better if I could shelve my brain and emotions - hand them in so to speak when I collect my card.  Tony says I will do better once I just shoot for the pure joy of it.

It's all down to the individual and probably Tony knows you better than anyone! I agree a lot of thought and emotion is unlikely to help. But that doesn't mean turning your brain off. You need focus, particularly on setting up for a shot and regulating the speed you react and move at etc. It's finding the right balance.

 

[Sian]

It's all down to the individual and probably Tony knows you better than anyone! I agree a lot of thought and emotion is unlikely to help. But that doesn't mean turning your brain off. You need focus, particularly on setting up for a shot and regulating the speed you react and move at etc. It's finding the right balance.

Yes he should do after 34 years but by turning my brain off it doesn't mean I am not focussed, it means every other stupid thing gets taken away.  My best scores ever have all been without any conscious thinking, just fun and not worrying about the misses and just moving on and sometimes not even paying attention to the stand just going in and doing it.  Its a lovely feeling unfortunately not a regular one.

 

[Will Hewland]

Yes we've all had the good day and wish we could bottle our tempo from it.. I try hard to move my gun at the same speed all the time, which rules out one big variant. I'm no superstar but I'm pretty consistent. One dropped score in last 30 I think.

 

[Salopian]

Mr Moss,

 I know you are new and inexperienced , so you would not remember the proper White Gold Cup ? :lol:  

As I said in my post , I'm not griping or bothered , just pointing out it does go on , A LOT.

It is up to referees to stop it when it happens . 

 

[Westward]

As I said in my post , I'm not griping or bothered , just pointing out it does go on , A LOT.

It is up to referees to stop it when it happens . 

Well Peter I do quite a lot of reffing, although I'm presumably very inexperienced as I've only been doing it for 5 years, but I don't seem to see all this cheating from registered competitors. Perhaps you could give some tips on what to look out for.

I do sometimes see people, usually the non CPSA shooters trying a bit of chip begging or demanding extra show pairs - and some even claim they don't have to wear glasses as they're not CPSA members. :???:

It can be a bit tricky at times because shoot organisers like to have the rules adhered to but obviously don't want to lose customers because an officious ref got snotty over a rules infringement.

It's easy for the teenage refs, they just let everything go, but I'm an old git who also fetches a gun out sometimes for the occasional registered so I tend to keep a close eye on things.

 

[Salopian]

Westward, 

Thank you for your reply .

Get someone to shoot a 32gram or 36 gram cartidge for you , listen, and then get them to shoot a 28gram, check to see if there is any noise difference .

Obviously noise is a subjective thing , but listening may highlight who may be using incorrect loads. If possible if you are suspicious , check for home loads, difficult to detect but they are out there. 32 grams easily goes into a 28 gram marked shell.

If you have a misfire (hard primer ) confiscate the offending cartridge.

Look out for 'matey boy' waving his hand, arm or nodding in the direction of flight of the target or muttering "more lead " etc.

Look out for 'matey boy' actually shooting the difficult targets using his mates card.  

The list really is endless , rules are made to  guide us , but some believe that they are made to be broken.

Incidentally all this as come about because this thread started about card manipulation.

I honestly will try to stop cheating , because it is fraud , obtaining money by deception, stealing , call it what you will .

But it is  no use burying our heads in the sand and saying 'it doesn't happen'  'I've never witnessed it ' 

What does that achieve ?

Finally I will withdraw from this discussion because obviously I have ruffled a few feathers.