The steel thing

[aynesie]

it will be a lot more expensive  

In theory once a manufacturer is producing the majority of cartridges in steel and the cost of manufacture comes down, then steel should be cheaper than lead as steel is cheaper than lead on the LME.

 

[Les53]

I guess the other thing to think about are our shooting grounds and their owners. 
Will course setters need to adjust their courses so as to avoid damage to trees etc, avoid ricochets? 
If effective clay breaking range is reduced with the use of steel, will some disciplines need to have the target distance reduced? 
Then comes the question of what shot sizes can be used and how many grams of shot will be allowed for the various disciplines? 
Shot load has been reduced over the years, starting with the Olympic disciplines if I remember correctly. 
So you have to wonder what will happen. Personally I wouldn’t want to go from 24grm to some thumpy 32 grm. 
There are so many unknown things related to shooting with steel. Not just with shotguns either, rifle shooters are wondering what is going to happen too. 
All we seem to have at the moment is speculation and gun manufacturers hype! 

 

[k80ben]

O shoot 3/4 or 5/8 and through titanium extreme chokes 

 

[Les53]

O shoot 3/4 or 5/8 and through titanium extreme chokes 

Hi Ben, I guess your k80 barrels are steel proof? Are you using standard steel or high performance steel? What shot loads and sizes are you using? 

 

[JoostB]

I know people that shoot 24grs and 28grs steel through full choke barrels. There are stories of the barrels ballooning, but that is only a very small chance. What is destroyed is the pattern though. That is the main reason not to use full choke and steel.

I think that our grounds are much smaller than those in the UK. All the ones where I shoot clean up the plastic wads and clays shards regularly. As far as I know out here for hunting steel cartridges with biodegradable wads are being used.

 

[Les53]

I know people that shoot 24grs and 28grs steel through full choke barrels. There are stories of the barrels ballooning, but that is only a very small chance. What is destroyed is the pattern though. That is the main reason not to use full choke and steel.

I think that our grounds are much smaller than those in the UK. All the ones where I shoot clean up the plastic wads and clays shards regularly. As far as I know out here for hunting steel cartridges with biodegradable wads are being used.

Thanks for the information, we do still have some very small shooting grounds here in the U.K. Nice to have input from someone outside of the U.K.

 

[TRINITY]

Been shooting this morning and had this discussion. Someone mentioned that steel will actually richochet from the clay is this fact of fiction

 

[k80ben]

I know people that shoot 24grs and 28grs steel through full choke barrels. There are stories of the barrels ballooning, but that is only a very small chance. What is destroyed is the pattern though. That is the main reason not to use full choke and steel.

I think that our grounds are much smaller than those in the UK. All the ones where I shoot clean up the plastic wads and clays shards regularly. As far as I know out here for hunting steel cartridges with biodegradable wads are being used.

Frank hsssekamp shoots full and full no problems with pattern blowing at all 

Hi Ben, I guess your k80 barrels are steel proof? Are you using standard steel or high performance steel? What shot loads and sizes are you using? 

High performance dark storm 28gm 7s 

Been shooting this morning and had this discussion. Someone mentioned that steel will actually richochet from the clay is this fact of fiction

Tell your colleague to stay off the mushrooms 

 

[FESkent]

In theory once a manufacturer is producing the majority of cartridges in steel and the cost of manufacture comes down, then steel should be cheaper than lead as steel is cheaper than lead on the LME.

However raw material cost is only just that, lead shot is produced in several EU countries and U.K., where as all the steel shot I am told comes from China, big difference in transport costs. Then it takes about 3hrs to make a tonne of lead shot but several days to make a tonne of steel shot and needs a lot more energy to do so.  Then the biodegradable plastics pellets are much more expensive to produce then oil based plastics.  So time will tell but have prices of cartridges ever come down?

 

[Les53]

You know, given all the speculation and rumours surrounding standard steel, high performance steel, steel proof barrels, nitro proof barrels. 
I’ve watched various videos, read various articles concerning steel shot, but as yet I’ve not seen anything that shows some kind of direct comparison between standard steel and high performance steel. 
Is high performance steel really necessary and if so why and for what discipline? 
I noticed on the Hull website, it shows the effective range of pro steel (standard steel) and Sovereign steel (high performance steel). The difference was about 5 mtrs.  So standard steel was 40 mtrs and high performance steel was 45mtrs

That doesn’t actually look like a massive distance or difference to be honest. 

 

[Les53]

There is also another question, as a mate pointed out to me earlier today. Do we know the long term effect of steel shot on the barrels over a long period? Ok , of course it depends on how many shells you use over a given period, but has any proper research been done? I don’t mean opinions, I mean proper scientific research. 
I certainly wouldn’t fancy needing to replace barrels every so many years, especially if it was an expensive gun such as a K80 or a Perazzi. 
The steel issue is far bigger than it looks. 
 

 

[TRINITY]

However raw material cost is only just that, lead shot is produced in several EU countries and U.K., where as all the steel shot I am told comes from China, big difference in transport costs. Then it takes about 3hrs to make a tonne of lead shot but several days to make a tonne of steel shot and needs a lot more energy to do so.  Then the biodegradable plastics pellets are much more expensive to produce then oil based plastics.  So time will tell but have prices of cartridges ever come down?

White gold Pro steel £266 per 1000

White gold 28gm plastic  £290 per 1000 

That tends to contradict things. Is all this manufacturing stuff nothing but sales Bull , so cartridge profitabilty can rise yet again 

 

[FESkent]

Ben. High performance dark storm 28gm 7s 

Is it just me ? but cannot find them listed on the gamebore website.

White gold Pro steel £266 per 1000

White gold 28gm plastic  £290 per 1000 

That tends to contradict things. Is all this manufacturing stuff nothing but sales Bull , so cartridge profitabilty can rise yet again 

However I do not believe either of them are using biodegradable wads, which for grounds that are fibre wads only are going to be required.

 

[ColinD]

Steel is only a problem if it comes into contact with the barrel, and that won't happen.

Edit: Answer is for Les53, two new posts came on before mine 

 

[FESkent]

The white gold lead are £338.00 on just cartridges and the steel 28gm steel are £324.00 but as i say not biodegradable wads.

Steel is only a problem if it comes into contact with the barrel, and that won't happen.

you hope, hence hull cartridges say use a case length that matches your chamber length.

 

[ColinD]

Should say in the wad until is leaves the barrel I hope

 

[FESkent]

risk of damaging the forcing cone hull say in the video

https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/fk0cYtomeZ0?feature=oembed

 

[TRINITY]

The white gold lead are £338.00 on just cartridges and the steel 28gm steel are £324.00 but as i say not biodegradable wads.

you hope, hence hull cartridges say use a case length that matches your chamber length.

Well if that's true, many common makes of guns have 3" chambers, how will that pan out ?

However I do not believe either of them are using biodegradable wads, which for grounds that are fibre wads only are going to be required.

Well, I rest my case mi'lord. It's the biodegradable wad that is the issue, not the fact that steel shot is more expensive than lead shot.

 

[FESkent]

Well, I rest my case mi'lord. It's the biodegradable wad that is the issue, not the fact that steel shot is more expensive than lead shot.

At this time steel shot is slightly cheaper than lead shot, but the gap has been closing over the last year.
Then supply and demand economics, if lead is banned in the U.K. (and EU) will steel shot production capacity be sufficient? just a few percent of all cartridges sold in the U.K. are non toxic shot a total ban will see demand rapidly and significantly increase.  Long way to go to reach a conclusion that steel shot will always be cheaper than lead.
Who thought a few years ago a club level cartridge would be £240 plus a thousand and fast heading towards £300

 

[Les53]

1 hour ago, FESkent said:

risk of damaging the forcing cone hull say in the video

https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/fk0cYtomeZ0?feature=oembed

Yep I saw that and another video about long term barrel damage, nobody seems to truly know how much damage is possible or over time.