Vat reduction

[TRINITY]

I believe a temporary reduction in vat comes in today on leisure and recreational business. Firstly I would assume a clay ground falls into the cstagory but could anyone confirm this.

Also if clay grounds qualify, I would be interested to know if all grounds pass on the savings immediately  

 

[Westward]

Ssssshhh... Don't go there. 

 

[Luke_(NL)]

Given that VAT is applied over a base price, vendors would actually have to change base pricing to keep prices equal when selling from the reduction onwards. The VAT is paid by the consumer and as such a reduction of same should result in a lower price to the consumer, making the expense 'cheaper' and thus more attractive.

Could be different here than in UK, but not passing on a VAT reduction (i.e. hiking your base price) to the actual consumer wouldn't be considered fair business here. That's not to say it wouldn't happen, but the consumer would likely know and have an opinion. Especially so if one place does, and another place doesn't pass the (saved) buck(s). 

 

[bostonmick]

I would not worry to much about a price reduction I believe most grounds are suffering and I would rather they keep the extra profit to help keep them in place.

 

[jonz]

Let’s see if any of the big ground owners have the bottle to come on here and say if they are going to pass the VAT reduction on to their customers. 
My money is on that’s a big fat NO

Bostonmick, there’s more shooters suffering than shoot owners so don’t feel too sorry for them, lots of shooters I know have lost their jobs so won’t be able to shoot for a long time 

 

[TRINITY]

Seems to me plenty of the bigger grounds charge something around 35p per clay. If this vat holiday applies to clay shooting then to my reckoning a 100 bird round should be a saving of £5.25 . Dosnt take much to work out this will make the grounds a nice four figure sum every week. 

 

[MartynB]

I don’t believe the Government has reduced VAT on leisure activities

 Quote . “The temporary reduced rate will apply to admission to shows, theatres, circuses, fairs, amusement parks, concerts, museums, zoos, cinemas, exhibitions and similar cultural events and facilities. HMRC’s latest guidance adds botanical gardens, planetariums and studio and factory tours as examples of attractions to which the reduced VAT rate for admission fees may apply.  The reduced rate does not apply to admissions to sporting events“

ps not that it makes a lot of difference but a 15% VAT reduction applied to a £35 gross currently at 20% is actually £4.37 . On £26/100 it’s £3.25 . 

 

[jasper]

I would not worry to much about a price reduction I believe most grounds are suffering and I would rather they keep the extra profit to help keep them in place.

This is a joke right?? Most of the grounds didn't want to close . Most came back as soon as and some whacked up the price hoping we wouldn't notice because we were keen to get back. Well done to all grounds that have held their pre lockdown prices. And especially well done to one near me that appreciated their customers and put their prices down. 

Jasper.

 

[TRINITY]

I don’t believe the Government has reduced VAT on leisure activities

 Quote . “The temporary reduced rate will apply to admission to shows, theatres, circuses, fairs, amusement parks, concerts, museums, zoos, cinemas, exhibitions and similar cultural events and facilities. HMRC’s latest guidance adds botanical gardens, planetariums and studio and factory tours as examples of attractions to which the reduced VAT rate for admission fees may apply.  The reduced rate does not apply to admissions to sporting events“

ps not that it makes a lot of difference but a 15% VAT reduction applied to a £35 gross currently at 20% is actually £4.37 . On £26/100 it’s £3.25 . 

Ok Martyn my vat calculation could be wrong. However when I started this thread I was not sure if grounds qualified and so far have been unable to do this.The reduced rate not applying for sporting  admissions refers to football grounds, race courses, cricket etc. Clay shooting we do not pay for admission we are charged on a service/product provided. The fact that most food and take out chains are all passing the reduction on to their customers suggests to me clay grounds may be able to do the same. 

If grounds do qualify for this temporary tax break, it's not their money they would just normally hand it over to the government and they never see it anyway. Think the spirit of this ruling is that it should go to the consumer, but it's not illegal if the supplier decides to keep the money for themselves.

Anyhow, I do concede its hypothetical till we know for sure if the tax break applies to clay shooting and now I have discovered golf green fees dont qualify then most likely it will possibly miss out.

 

[MartynB]

I wasn’t suggesting Clay Shooting was a sporting event , just cutting and pasting a news feed from my phone with the list of VAT reductions on it .

I was watching discussions on Sky News last night and it seems that the VAT drop is not a given to be passed on to customers in the hospitality and leisure business  .The business can use it however they want  . Burger King aren’t passing on a penny , McDonald’s are passing on a proportion .  Some of the theme parks are keeping their pricing . 

I can see how businesses  that have lost 1/2 of seating capacity to social distancing need to keep the 15% to keep going , but if customers don’t like that approach they’ll vote with their feet . 
I’ll be interested to see how many restaurants take up the up to  £10 scheme scheme   in August , 

The thing to consider though is that even if those businesses  keep the 15% for the 6 month  run of the scheme , that gives them less than one months lost revenue back to cover the 3 or 4 months  that they have been closed . I think the leisure / hospitality  sector will see a lot more closures and job losses in the months ahead . 

 

[Westward]

I don't think it's in anyone's interest to keep this thread running. Some stones are best left unturned and IMO this is one of them. 

 

[bostonmick]

Let’s see if any of the big ground owners have the bottle to come on here and say if they are going to pass the VAT reduction on to their customers. 
My money is on that’s a big fat NO

Bostonmick, there’s more shooters suffering than shoot owners so don’t feel too sorry for them, lots of shooters I know have lost their jobs so won’t be able to shoot for a long time 

So the grounds have been closed for a few months so nil income. The clays they have in stock will have had the 20% vat on them so if they deduct the new rate from your round they will be losing money and businesses that lose money soon disappear.its a very complicated situation. The price of cartridges went up blamed the increase in lead price but never went down when lead price dropped. Oil price has been on the floor so making plastic cheaper yet again no drop in cartridge price. And let’s not forget when we do fully leave the eu we will be the only non eu country paying vat and that will hurt us all. 

 

[Rupert]

So the grounds have been closed for a few months so nil income. The clays they have in stock will have had the 20% vat on them so if they deduct the new rate from your round they will be losing money and businesses that lose money soon disappear.its a very complicated situation. The price of cartridges went up blamed the increase in lead price but never went down when lead price dropped. Oil price has been on the floor so making plastic cheaper yet again no drop in cartridge price. And let’s not forget when we do fully leave the eu we will be the only non eu country paying vat and that will hurt us all. 

This is correct, but in order to be fully compliant Vat would be levied at point of sale at the prevailing rate, this would have no effect on a registered business, the unregistered would lose out 

 

[ChrisPackham]

i think  the idea of lowering vat is to encourage consumer spending not to feather the clay ground nest!  If this is indeed the case its a very poor show indeed, especially when they put back to 20% and everyone gets a significant uplift in costs, I certainly wont be attending ground that do this and will be sticking to local clubs.

I wasn’t suggesting Clay Shooting was a sporting event , just cutting and pasting a news feed from my phone with the list of VAT reductions on it .

I was watching discussions on Sky News last night and it seems that the VAT drop is not a given to be passed on to customers in the hospitality and leisure business  .The business can use it however they want  . Burger King aren’t passing on a penny , McDonald’s are passing on a proportion .  Some of the theme parks are keeping their pricing . 

I can see how businesses  that have lost 1/2 of seating capacity to social distancing need to keep the 15% to keep going , but if customers don’t like that approach they’ll vote with their feet . 
I’ll be interested to see how many restaurants take up the up to  £10 scheme scheme   in August , 

The thing to consider though is that even if those businesses  keep the 15% for the 6 month  run of the scheme , that gives them less than one months lost revenue back to cover the 3 or 4 months  that they have been closed . I think the leisure / hospitality  sector will see a lot more closures and job losses in the months ahead . 

And if they don't absord the return to VAT (if indeed it doesn't go to 25% or more to top up coffers to pay for Rishis spending like a Euromillions lottery winner) then people simply wont go and they will be f***ed, this could be a text book economic train wreck, so Rishi will have to keep his pants down for a while longer...

 

[Lloyd]

This is correct, but in order to be fully compliant Vat would be levied at point of sale at the prevailing rate, this would have no effect on a registered business, the unregistered would lose out 

Indeed. It’s a cash flow issue.
The business only acts as a VAT collector for HMRC with the end user ultimately the payer of VAT.

The registered business will “claim  back” the 20% VAT and “pass on” to HMRC the lower rate “collected” front the consumer.

business buys from supplier goods to value of £100 +VAT at 20%. Cash out £120.

business marks up product to £200 + VAT. Cash in £240

business sends £40 VAT collected, minus £20 VAT paid, cash out to HMRC £20. Gross profit made £100

 

[Westward]

Look guys and gals. We do not need to draw possibly unwanted attention to how clay shooting operates fiscally. Bugger the technicalities of VAT, I used to be VAT registered so I know how it all works, please just find another topic as surely no one wants the inevitable huge rise in shooting costs if the wrong people start looking into this. 

 

[Lloyd]

@Westward

interesting point. I’m not sure that grounds owners would be so lacking in intelligence to spot not opportunities to make more money. It’s debatable perhaps they might assume the paying shooter might not realise, but if as you say, they come across this thread, then surely it provides ample evidence that shooters are no fools to be taken for granted? Also, this might not be the only discussion taking place. I haven’t checked pigeon watch or the facefook but I’d be surprised if this discussion isn’t going on elsewhere about shooting and all the other leisure businesses.

Oh and apologies if my previous post came across as patronising to anyone. Not everybody has had experience of the business back office. Thought it might help out the odd person here and there to workout if anyone feels they might be getting rippped off for the odd fiver of VAT here and there. 

Also, we might just be worrying for nothing if it doesn’t actually apply to clay shooting. 
 

I’ll respect your wishes though and say no more on the matter. 

 

[MartynB]

And if they don't absord the return to VAT (if indeed it doesn't go to 25% or more to top up coffers to pay for Rishis spending like a Euromillions lottery winner) then people simply wont go and they will be f***ed, this could be a text book economic train wreck, so Rishi will have to keep his pants down for a while longer...

For what it’s worth  , I think that a more beneficial effect to kickstarting the economy  could have been had  by giving every taxpayer in the U.K. “Helicopter Money “ . Perhaps in the form of preloaded card that could not be transferred to savings , and had a drop dead date so it had to be used . These  current measures completely ignore that fact that up to 4 out of 10 people on furlough could lose jobs , so anyone with a bit of foresight isn’t going to go blow a few hundred quid on a discounted day at Alton Towers or a week in a 4* in Cornwall despite any discount. I certainly know a couple of younger lads who aren’t burning through their regular £80 a week on clays because they suspect their employers will have a cull in the near future . 
 

Also, we might just be worrying for nothing if it doesn’t actually apply to clay shooting. 

This 100% ...... But then threads do take on a life of their own don’t they ? 

 

[chippy]

I believe a temporary reduction in vat comes in today on leisure and recreational business. Firstly I would assume a clay ground falls into the cstagory but could anyone confirm this.

Also if clay grounds qualify, I would be interested to know if all grounds pass on the savings immediately  

They have around here, in fact most grounds are letting you shoot for free.