Very Slow Crossers!

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That's why pattern plates are useless!!! On a moving/crossing 3D clay target it would be broken, only if it was a straight going away  might slip through if you were very unlucky.

If you are trying to justify/prove that the crosser YOU MISSED in your previous video somehow slipped through your skeet pattern...then you are onto plums!!! If you had shot at it with 1/2 choke, you would still have missed in front, but with a tighter pattern and by marginally more, full choke would have still missed in front with an even tighter pattern and by marginally more again. ;) ;) ;)

 
Thanks, Please allow me one indulgence. I did some tests to prove the aiming point/ camera view for the development and manufacture of my camera system.

I also tested the pattern of my Miroku Mk38 Chokes:

Skeet Pattern Card

Full size picture on A4 – 90mm Midi Target.
Skeet Choke @ exactly 40 yards.
Popular brand Clay Cartridge: 1oz - 7 shot size
Aiming point: centre of target.

Could an edge on Target get through this Skeet Pattern?
 

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View attachment 5729
Yes absolutely it could

But there are several issues of note here, some factually provable others reliant on long term practical observation/evidence which appears to defy logic. 

Most targets thrown are standards, most show some if not a lot of face (as did yours in the video), most aren't that far away and most are shot at with the more usual 7.5 or 8 shot which contain many more pellets. Now you could pose a fairly valid argument : is 7 shot more liable to allow targets to escape through the pattern to which the absolute mathematical answer would be yes, it is more likely than 7.5's which in turn yield to 8 which yield to 9's. This from a purely numbers game by the way and not necessarily meaning that 9's are therefore better. 

The other less easily provable phenomenon is the appearance of 2 dimensional patterns V their actual performance in practice. In my early days I did a lot of pattern playing and along with many here agree that even some rather tight chokes appear to contain loads of empty spaces through which clays could escape (as they mathematically and statistically must) at some point particularly when we are less than perfect in placing the centre of our patterns on the moving targets, i.e, relying on the margins of even tight patterns is a mugs game. 

In short it's a wonder we really hit anything beyond 40 yards because the pattern plate would have you think otherwise but undeniably we do so there is something not quite black and white here. Some have argued it's the tear drop shape and length of the shot string that cause this (I disagree entirely) others look for the more obvious answer and that is 1) most misses would not have occurred had the centre of the pattern been on target - in other words you missed with the poor margin

                               2) there are maybe half a dozen empty holes in a pattern compared to hundreds of UNempty spaces - meaning you have a far greater chance of being

                                   lucky with filled spaces than not. 

I don't in principal disagree with you that open chokes will cause missed targets but I maintain that your sample of evidence here is small to non existent. Most experienced shots have already hinted that the more (probable) cause of the miss as well as the poor breaks was being too far in front. 

Had you filmed 100 or more 40 yard targets shot with Skeet and then 100 shot with 3/4 using either a jig or at least an extremely experienced shooter with suitable tea breaks and elimination of other factors then I would stand by any variance in outcome. I actually believe that as well as seeing much more convincing breaks with tight chokes, that there may indeed be an actual numerical advantage. 

I have had some great kills on edge on targets with open chokes at distance.  
This is undeniable and possibly proof that one or two pellets can give good break signatures due to the centrifugal forces acting on the clay which need only fracture just enough to start to tear itself apart. 

 
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This is undeniable and possibly proof that one or two pellets can give good break signatures due to the centrifugal forces acting on the clay which need only fracture just enough to start to tear itself apart. 
I'll take the one or two pellets because my scores keep going up and up. :)

I bet you've had some great misses too :)

Trouble is with that kind of pattern you never know whether the miss was due to poor pattern or poor pattern placement?

DT
This lady is not for turning :)   I do miss but I am more convinced that it is me and my ability rather than my chokes.  I have had some stonkers, I am known as second shot sharp shooter - ask Tony Jaye Sachel-Wing the ref - they have left the county and are just about to leave the country sometimes.

 
I'll take the one or two pellets because my scores keep going up and up. :)

This lady is not for turning :)   I do miss but I am more convinced that it is me and my ability rather than my chokes.  I have had some stonkers, I am known as second shot sharp shooter - ask Tony Jaye Sachel-Wing the ref - they have left the county and are just about to leave the country sometimes.

 
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A different cartridge from the one I used may/ would probably have provided a better pattern.

It's worth asking:

How many successful trap shooters use Skeet/ Cylinder chokes? If none why not?

How many top Sporting/Fitasc shooters exclusively use Skeet/ Cylinder chokes? I recognise several successful shooters on this site. Would they tell us why they don't?

My opinion is that 95% of the average targets on the average Sporting Shoot - open chokes are sufficient.

I am not now a good shot and 2.1 million people have witnessed my YouTube Videos so I should be embarrassed really, but I am not. I enjoy my shooting as much as ever (hit or miss) and my opinions are from personal  experience. Many have thanked me for giving a graphic insight into gun movement and lead and there is a long waiting list for our "Line of Sight" camera system.

I have attached some more pattern cards using the same gun and cartridge combination.

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My pattern is very good apparently according to those in the know when tested.  I seem to have a good spread!   Top shots use tighter chokes - there are none that I know of that use open chokes but then their accuracy is far better than mine and they have shot a lot longer than me and they get good kills with them.  There are shooters that like to change their chokes on every stand, good luck to them if that is what makes them feel secure and more assured of a better kill.  I don't.  I like my set up, if it costs me a target or two so be it.  Thanks for the pictures though.  Because you have quoted me above I do not know if you are responding to me directly and I also in honesty cannot "read" the tone of your response.  But to be clear I enjoy these type of discussions with pictures and videos and you should be rightly proud of your achievements but then I don't think I said otherwise.

 
My pattern is very good apparently according to those in the know when tested.  I seem to have a good spread!   Top shots use tighter chokes - there are none that I know of that use open chokes but then their accuracy is far better than mine and they have shot a lot longer than me and they get good kills with them.  There are shooters that like to change their chokes on every stand, good luck to them if that is what makes them feel secure and more assured of a better kill.  I don't.  I like my set up, if it costs me a target or two so be it.  Thanks for the pictures though.  Because you have quoted me above I do not know if you are responding to me directly and I also in honesty cannot "read" the tone of your response.  But to be clear I enjoy these type of discussions with pictures and videos and you should be rightly proud of your achievements but then I don't think I said otherwise.



 
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My apologies I did not mean for the old post to be publish along with my latest post. Just thought that a clip from my next video would be of interest.

It would appear that I am completely out of my depth amongst all you "Master Clay Breakers" but will still potter along as a "Newbie" and will not inflict my puerile observations furthermore. However, I can assure you that with over 60 years experience that the range is accurately stated. (I also designed the camera and placed the iris setting!) All the best & Goodbye
Gordon I enjoy your videos.

Don't get the hump with some on here, most are geniuses...? And mean no offense.

My aproach to the subject is. 2 x Skeet choke = close with 9's. 2 x Light mod 3/8 7.5's on every thing else. Imp mod 5/8 6.5's on extreme. That's what they were designed for. 

Who knows what choke the top shooters use, I know of one who recently opened up a bit.

 
Not wishing to sound critical but why did you shoot them that way round. Shoot the back one (left one) first then move naturally onto the second one. Going back and forth takes time 

skeet chokes 8's or 7.5's on that target would powdered it.

 
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Gordon I enjoy your videos.

Don't get the hump with some on here, most are geniuses...? And mean no offense.

My aproach to the subject is. 2 x Skeet choke = close with 9's. 2 x Light mod 3/8 7.5's on every thing else. Imp mod 5/8 6.5's on extreme. That's what they were designed for. 

Who knows what choke the top shooters use, I know of one who recently opened up a bit.
-

 
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My claim to have missed because of open choke/poor pattern-  Having produced many shooting videos It may be a good idea to mention; that I believe this is the only instance where I came to the conclusion that I should have broken a target but did not because of the wrong choice of choke. Looking forensically at the video again I firmly believe this to be the case.
Gordon, by your own admission you're not vastly experienced at clay shooting so it's hard to see why you believe choke could be responsible rather than a multitude of other factors. I love looking at the technical side of things forensically if possible but to do so would need a large volume of testing to ensure as much as possible that all known possibilities are accounted for. 

Going back to my example of getting a good shooter to fire hundreds of times at a constant type of target would need to involve his/her being unaware of the choke being used. One way of achieving this would be to blind load for them and variously switch the barrel being fired first, this would negate their subconscious input/bias towards one choke or another. Forensic conclusions are therefore hugely demanding but to get the accurate answer they're the only route.

 
um, I don't know the answer to this one BUT there have been occasions were I (and others) have definitely hit em (cos they had holes in) but they didn't break and that was with three quarter and 28g 7s 5% antimony. This topic is somewhat different as I think op is talking of holes in the pattern. My little tale is merely food for thought

many trap shooters who frequent this forum will know were and when.

 
Gordon I enjoy your videos.

Don't get the hump with some on here, most are geniuses...? And mean no offense.

My aproach to the subject is. 2 x Skeet choke = close with 9's. 2 x Light mod 3/8 7.5's on every thing else. Imp mod 5/8 6.5's on extreme. That's what they were designed for. 

Who knows what choke the top shooters use, I know of one who recently opened up a bit.
Thanks Rosso, I have gone from 1/2 & 1/2 to 1/4 & 1/4 recently.  Nice of you to notice.

 
Gordon, by your own admission you're not vastly experienced at clay shooting so it's hard to see why you believe choke could be responsible rather than a multitude of other factors. I love looking at the technical side of things forensically if possible but to do so would need a large volume of testing to ensure as much as possible that all known possibilities are accounted for. 

Going back to my example of getting a good shooter to fire hundreds of times at a constant type of target would need to involve his/her being unaware of the choke being used. One way of achieving this would be to blind load for them and variously switch the barrel being fired first, this would negate their subconscious input/bias towards one choke or another. Forensic conclusions are therefore hugely demanding but to get the accurate answer they're the only route.



 
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