I will admit that the gap year thing has always baffled me, but I don't think they all do it though. All my cousins went to uni, some ended up as teachers, one became a preacher and a teacher! One ended up working for English Heritage, no bugger really seems to know what he does there though.
Who are they and who's paying?
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Wonko the Sane
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- LORDY!!!!
A list of non-listees as it were - - - if it exists
So Charlie, a list of people who are not on a list!!! Well now, that's an interesting idea!!! A sort of non list as it were.
BTC3
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As an ex-public school university graduate who took a gap year between school and uni, I'd bite, but I was holding out for someone who also joined the church to come along so you could get 4/4; I don't really "do" organised religion....
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ips
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My posts above re-uni were not totally flippant.
In all seriousness I believe that the best education for a job can be had by the good old apprenticeship but this does not seem to exist much these days. Also it seems to me having had friends and family that have attended uni that very very few these days get employment in there chosen subject matter in fact many seem to go just for the alleged fun of it and in order to delay the inevitable requirement for work for as long as possible. It seems to me that many years ago one had to be especially intelligent to attend uni now it seems that any tom Dick or Harry (no offence or pun intended DT) can have a go. There seems to be a "degree" available for all sorts of daft things that in reality the student has no chance of gaining employment from. Yes there are exceptions I realise that such as "proper" subjects like law and medicine etc which I accept require university education.
In all seriousness I believe that the best education for a job can be had by the good old apprenticeship but this does not seem to exist much these days. Also it seems to me having had friends and family that have attended uni that very very few these days get employment in there chosen subject matter in fact many seem to go just for the alleged fun of it and in order to delay the inevitable requirement for work for as long as possible. It seems to me that many years ago one had to be especially intelligent to attend uni now it seems that any tom Dick or Harry (no offence or pun intended DT) can have a go. There seems to be a "degree" available for all sorts of daft things that in reality the student has no chance of gaining employment from. Yes there are exceptions I realise that such as "proper" subjects like law and medicine etc which I accept require university education.
Bryn12
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I'd lump 'experts' in with politicians and journalists, except that experts have very detailed knowledge in a very confined area of a very restricted field, politicians know f'all about anything & journlists are beneath contempt as they listen to both the above and can't even report that right in their scribblings.
Bryn12
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"You may think that but I couldn't possibly comment" :biggrin:
I think viewS may be more accurate. It may be as I get older but I often look at the world around me and despair, but my contempt for the incestuous world of the self proclaimed 'Intelligentsia' of the chattering classes has been a constant throughout my adult life.
BTC3
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OK, my name's Richard, so we're now up to 4/5, and I guess I'll take a nibble of the bait.
I come from a long line of public school and university folk. On my dad's side they're all lawyers or army officers, or military lawyers; on my mother's they're historians, archaeologists and teachers. All have used their studies in their chosen professions, and have been quite successful in their fields. My degree was in a more nebulous subject, and some of that academic stuff gets used in my day job, though a lot of the technical aspect of the field I work in was learned on the job.
Interestingly the company I work for does have apprenticeships, we take on a bunch of them each year. Some see it through and end up working with us, others decide to go elsewhere. Those that stay tend to end up in the production/technical side of things and have no apparent desire to move from that role. The more admin type roles (sales, marketing, R&D, operations, etc.) tend to be filled by university graduates, e.g. me, sales director.
I can't say that we would necessarily presume that someone with a 3rd class degree from an online Uni in the "comparative narrative structures used in Australian soap operas from the 1980s and 1990s" would be a prime candidate to come work with us, but I wouldn't discount a university education altogether...
ips
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Richard
well your family history proves my point in as much as proper uni degrees being worthwhile but what of these nonsense degrees such as media studies etc it means nothing in the real world. It is comforting to know that apprenticeship still exists.
For the record my dad RIP Was a highly intelligent grammar school educated man who was a career RAF wireless technician and all round clever clogs. On leaving grammar school he was an apprentice trained metalurgist before embarking on his RAF career so again an education not wasted. I on the other hand felt that all teachers were somewhat inadequate by comparison and had no interest in there ramblings i remain convinced that my dad taught me 99% of everything i know.
I am not against uni education per se however i see little point in tax payers footing the bill for silly degrees with little or no future. Law yes medicine yes some other science stuff yes but circus performing arts and the like, no get a job you clown.
well your family history proves my point in as much as proper uni degrees being worthwhile but what of these nonsense degrees such as media studies etc it means nothing in the real world. It is comforting to know that apprenticeship still exists.
For the record my dad RIP Was a highly intelligent grammar school educated man who was a career RAF wireless technician and all round clever clogs. On leaving grammar school he was an apprentice trained metalurgist before embarking on his RAF career so again an education not wasted. I on the other hand felt that all teachers were somewhat inadequate by comparison and had no interest in there ramblings i remain convinced that my dad taught me 99% of everything i know.
I am not against uni education per se however i see little point in tax payers footing the bill for silly degrees with little or no future. Law yes medicine yes some other science stuff yes but circus performing arts and the like, no get a job you clown.
BTC3
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But the increasing expectation for high quality performance in the circus, created by an ever growing selection of entertainment options will result in a need for PhDs in Clowning Around, or at least BAs in Carnival Hawking and Toffee Apple Sales Strategy. But I digress...
At the other end of the spectrum, and if we're playing at being on high horses allow me to clamber onto mine, you get people graduating, even with sensible degrees, who expect that the sole fact of attaining the degree allows (or in some cases entitles) them to walk into positions of power and expertise. I have had to beat down (verbally, I hasten to add) recent grads who refused to carry out tasks, or work on assigned projects because "they worked on something like it last month" and so know all about it and it would be beneath them to do it again now; or since they have a degree in whatever, they demand to be able to discuss company strategy with the CEO because they are now the font of all recent academic perspective on the issue... And then, after about 18 months in the job they demand to take a sabbatical to go travelling for 6 months because they have worked so hard. Oh,and we have to hold the job open for them until they get back. My first position as a recent grad involved carrying someone's bags, sitting in a corner during meetings and listening. Then I got onto a factory floor and was given a broom as the tool of my trade until I was promoted to using a rag! (this was in the print business)
OK, I'll dismount the horse and go back to my corner.
PS your paternal education sounds wonderful. Mine taught me how to write business cases and prepare financial projections to justify my pocket money! Not sure whether I still resent it or not...
At the other end of the spectrum, and if we're playing at being on high horses allow me to clamber onto mine, you get people graduating, even with sensible degrees, who expect that the sole fact of attaining the degree allows (or in some cases entitles) them to walk into positions of power and expertise. I have had to beat down (verbally, I hasten to add) recent grads who refused to carry out tasks, or work on assigned projects because "they worked on something like it last month" and so know all about it and it would be beneath them to do it again now; or since they have a degree in whatever, they demand to be able to discuss company strategy with the CEO because they are now the font of all recent academic perspective on the issue... And then, after about 18 months in the job they demand to take a sabbatical to go travelling for 6 months because they have worked so hard. Oh,and we have to hold the job open for them until they get back. My first position as a recent grad involved carrying someone's bags, sitting in a corner during meetings and listening. Then I got onto a factory floor and was given a broom as the tool of my trade until I was promoted to using a rag! (this was in the print business)
OK, I'll dismount the horse and go back to my corner.
PS your paternal education sounds wonderful. Mine taught me how to write business cases and prepare financial projections to justify my pocket money! Not sure whether I still resent it or not...
ips
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I like your comments a lot.
I agree completely re grads assuming a job or career is there god given right unfortunately as you and i know the real world is somewhat different.
Like you i had to earn my pocket money in some most interesting ways. Must be a services upbringing thing that we both enjoyed.
I agree completely re grads assuming a job or career is there god given right unfortunately as you and i know the real world is somewhat different.
Like you i had to earn my pocket money in some most interesting ways. Must be a services upbringing thing that we both enjoyed.
Bebo
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I wouldn't agree that only law and medicine are worthwhile degree subjects.
Wouldn't fancy driving over the Severn if that suspension bridge was designed by someone without a Civil Engineering degree (and appropriate post-grad professional experience).
Even non-vocational degrees are worthwhile. A degree in a classic subject demonstrates an ability to learn, which is quite often all you are looking for when employing someone for their first job.
Wouldn't fancy driving over the Severn if that suspension bridge was designed by someone without a Civil Engineering degree (and appropriate post-grad professional experience).
Even non-vocational degrees are worthwhile. A degree in a classic subject demonstrates an ability to learn, which is quite often all you are looking for when employing someone for their first job.
ips
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Possibly a valid point however pretty sure stevenson and telford etc didn't attain a degree at making things, i bet they learned on the job taught by there elders.
I accept there are other worthwhile subjects such as engineering that you refer to i am mainly talking about the stupid ones that young folk do because it sounds fun with no intention and or possibility of gaining employment. I also believe that it is impossible to learn certain things unless you do it live and not in a sterile classroom environment.
I accept there are other worthwhile subjects such as engineering that you refer to i am mainly talking about the stupid ones that young folk do because it sounds fun with no intention and or possibility of gaining employment. I also believe that it is impossible to learn certain things unless you do it live and not in a sterile classroom environment.
Oh well, looks as though Ian has opened another can of worms!!! There are many worthwhile degrees, however I do believe that the availability and types of degree on offer should reflect the future needs of the country,in other words there is no point in training people in subjects where there is little requirement as far as employment is concerned. Yes we could have a million people coming out of uni with a forrestry degree, but would have enough work for them? Maybe not, so they may them move abroad to use their degree, so this country would not benefit. So as far as I'm concerned any training should relate to a future ,related career. Just my view of course!!!
Bebo
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Thomas Telford was the first president of the Institution of Civil Engineers. Telford was around at the birth of Civil Engineering - he was originally trained as a stonemason, around at the start of using steel as a structural material and dead before the use of reinforced concrete was considered. Hardly surprising that there wasn't a Civil Engineering degree for him to study.
Fortunately we've moved on from the days of Telford, where it is now a job that requires very specific qualifications and is highly regulated. That's why things like the Tay Bridge Disaster and the Dale Dike reservoir dam collapse that happened in the early days of major civil engineering projects don't happen in the UK any more.
Maybe when the first Civil Engineering degrees were being introduced there were grumpy old stonemasons saying what a waste of time they were. Maybe in a couple of hundred years time everyone will be busy talking about pointless degrees, but not including media studies degrees because of the benefit they have bought to mankind......
Fortunately we've moved on from the days of Telford, where it is now a job that requires very specific qualifications and is highly regulated. That's why things like the Tay Bridge Disaster and the Dale Dike reservoir dam collapse that happened in the early days of major civil engineering projects don't happen in the UK any more.
Maybe when the first Civil Engineering degrees were being introduced there were grumpy old stonemasons saying what a waste of time they were. Maybe in a couple of hundred years time everyone will be busy talking about pointless degrees, but not including media studies degrees because of the benefit they have bought to mankind......
