I truly believe in a society where we should help the weak, the poor, the elderly, those that have hit hard times - I really really do but pensions were paid for by many who now draw them. The other benefits unfortunately are misused by a lot of people and I don't even blame those who work the system, I blame those that administer it and I don't care what government is in - no government seems to be able to control the administering of these benefits. There are countless people who seem to go from one generation to the next on benefits of one or more kinds. There really needs to be a way of ensuring those that really do need assistance financial or otherwise get it. We have whole generations who just rely on benefits. Its true to say that genuine folk get caught up in fighting for benefit but if we actually got rid of those that play the system it might actually mean better and quicker benefits for the genuine folk. I don't want children to go without but quite frankly in a society where we feel we can just pop them out at will with little consequence or thought process of actually being responsible for them then we reap what we sew. Welfare is supposed to be for when you need it, some need it longer than others and some for their lifetime but there are an awful lot of people who just consider it their right to be "looked after" and do not make any attempt to change. When you consider that someone looking for employment can be told by the Benefit Office that they can only work a certain number of hours or their welfare will be cut - you have got to questions what the hell is going on. I would never want any genuine person to go without assistance, I just see too many who are not genuine.
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Finners
Well-known member
Spot on Sian!
I, like many have worked hard all of my life (thus far) and have paid my taxes via PAYE. But whilst I agree with your points above, too many people avoid and overly evade paying their taxes in my opinion. Obviously I don't have any actual facts to back up what I'm about to say, but I can't help thinking that if every penny of tax due was actually paid and collected, we'd not have any significant financial (as opposed to ethical) issues with Benefits.
So, yes let's try to only support those in actual need but let's also crack down on tax avoidance AND excessive tax evasion - ie Google et al.
I, like many have worked hard all of my life (thus far) and have paid my taxes via PAYE. But whilst I agree with your points above, too many people avoid and overly evade paying their taxes in my opinion. Obviously I don't have any actual facts to back up what I'm about to say, but I can't help thinking that if every penny of tax due was actually paid and collected, we'd not have any significant financial (as opposed to ethical) issues with Benefits.
So, yes let's try to only support those in actual need but let's also crack down on tax avoidance AND excessive tax evasion - ie Google et al.
Oh I want them held to account but that wasn't what we were discussing. I don't go for saying oh its a tiny fraction compared to....... It is all relevant in its way and all plays a part - it all needs sorting out.
Finners
Well-known member
Sorry, I think it was me who dragged the point in this direction.
But I also wish to clarify that I was not just thinking of big business tax evasion. There are far too many "ordinary" people who avoid paying their full dues too. At one end of the scale, it's those who work cash in hand and at the other, there are those who employ potentially dubious tax avoidance/evasion tactics as they can afford to pay clever Accountants.
Nick Selby
Well-known member
How can it be a crime if it is legal? Are you suggesting these companies have acted illegally?
As for a previous post by someone re more money to the NHS.... work in the NHS and you will find that there is a lot of money, it is often spent unwisely though. It costs the NHS £80m a year for paracetamol!! Why, when these can be purchased for pennies in the supermarket. Why are GPs prescribing these? Read about the clock which was put in at the new hospital in Bristol. £300k (would pay for 10 nurses or physios to be trained) on a clock that people cannot tell the time from. This is all just the tip of the iceberg....Who is making these decisions? Who is accountable for these decisions?
it is not lack of funding that is wrecking the NHS, it is unprecedented demand (due to its success at keeping people alive, an aging population and large increase in the population) and waste that is crippling it. The Tories are not cutting back or underfunding, that is a left wing peddled lie.
Finners
Well-known member
Maybe not a "crime" as in punishable in law. But there's surely a question over these huge profits not benefiting the tax purse?
Anyway, my point also included the evasion by cash in hand and the exploitation via so called legal loopholes. To me it may not be illegal, but that does not mean it's ok. Think about the expenses scandal, many of those claims were perfectly "legal" but simply immoral.
And, yes the NHS does waste a lot of money.
Slavery was once legal, burning witches and apartheid was once legal, popping aboriginals for target practice was once legal, colonialism was once legal (nowadays it has morphed and changed shape somewhat), legality is a construct of the powerful NOT justice and most certainly not morality.
I am not suggesting they broke the law, I am telling anyone who will open their eyes that they constructed the law. When that despicable Green dude was bypassing the tax laws of this country and pretending that he owed no tax because the company was in his wife's name and she lived in Monaco
h34r: it wasn't laws they broke but basic human ethics. All governments can fix loopholes in literally weeks if not days, the reason the don't is because the top tier are in collusion with one another and together they point the finger at the weak, the disabled and those who can't answer back. The country's wheels are turned by the middle classes who both work and pay taxes. The lowest tier are in turn kept happy in their misery by being told the enemy is the immigrant. The whole thing is one giant ruse. I think it has everything to do with Clayshooting, after all the outcome of the General Election will dictate the next price rise in cartridges, or perhaps I should say that the Cartridge Cartel will have us believe that ?
Nick Selby
Well-known member
By calling it 'white collar crime' you are actually suggesting it is illegal. Crime it isn't, however there are arguments that it is morally wrong. They are being tax efficient which many companies try to be. That is why a decent tax accountant in any company is very highly valued.Slavery was once legal, burning witches and apartheid was once legal, popping aboriginals for target practice was once legal, colonialism was once legal (nowadays it has morphed and changed shape somewhat), legality is a construct of the powerful NOT justice and most certainly not morality.
I am not suggesting they broke the law, I am telling anyone who will open their eyes that they constructed the law. When that despicable Green dude was bypassing the tax laws of this country and pretending that he owed no tax because the company was in his wife's name and she lived in Monaco
mind you, I guess if we are being so straight down the line, maybe we should also get rid of ISAs as they are a legal way of reducing the amount of tax we pay.... all those millions of us dodging the amount of tax we pay...and close down the legal loopholes that the champagne socialists like Gary linekar et al use to also be tax efficient. The Guardian always liked to have a pop at the 'tax dodgers' but it was found out that their parent company use an offshore account in the Cayman Islands....
it seems that every is at it....
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Except that I paid for my state pension through a system called National Insurance. I also paid a significant extra amount each month into a thing called SERPS. Successive governments helped themselves to that money and instead of investing it on behalf of the contributors they spent it on their pet vote winning projects like tax credits and nursery vouchers. That sort of thing.Same old msm crap about benefit scroungers. The bulk of the welfare budget in this country is spent on State Pensions, not on unemployment benefits for people that are too idle to work. Take all the old folk out and shoot 'em, that'll save us a bundle
I am a pensioner but I'm NOT LIVING ON BENEFITS! Absolutely N.O.T! If the governments through the years had invested my contributions properly instead of stealing them, my pensions would be about 5 times as much as they are and wouldn't be costing tax payers ONE SINGLE PENNY!
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I apologise I put pension under the heading of benefit and it most certainly is not - you paid in in good faith and have been royally rogered by successive governments.
No need for you to apologise Sian. However, Bebo might want to think about her post...
Bebo
Well-known member
There seems to be this idea that by paying your National Insurance payments you've paid for your pension. That's how private pensions work, not NI and state pensions. NI isn't invested, what you pay in National Insurance went to pay other peoples State Pensions at the time you were paying it. Currently NI payments are ring-fenced so that the money can only be spent on state pensions, the NHS, unemployment benefit and sickness and disability allowances.
That means that your state pension is being paid (in part) by the NI that I am now paying. I don't have an issue with that, because your NI probably paid for the NHS treatment that my mum had 20 years ago when she had a stroke (in part) and your taxes paid for me to go to school (in part). By paying NI we're paying for other people's pensions and NHS treatment (and unemployment benefit) in the trust that someone else will be paying for ours later. The only people that can make sure that happens is the Govt. They have to ensure there is enough money coming in to cover that implied contract that you signed up to by paying tax and NI all those years. Any Govt that lets big business and those that can afford to pay more tax to get off lightly isn't living up to that contract and doesn't deserve the job.
If Labour had got in and followed their manifesto, I would have had to pay more tax and national insurance and the company that I'm a Director of would have paid more corporation tax. I have less call on what is covered by tax and NI (I've never been unemployed, I'm fortunate to never to have been seriously ill, I don't have children so don't rely on schools) than many people do but I have absolutely no problem paying a bit more if it means that those services and safety nets are in place for those that need it. If I'm ever in the position to need them myself I'll be very grateful to everyone else who has paid to make them available for me as well.
That means that your state pension is being paid (in part) by the NI that I am now paying. I don't have an issue with that, because your NI probably paid for the NHS treatment that my mum had 20 years ago when she had a stroke (in part) and your taxes paid for me to go to school (in part). By paying NI we're paying for other people's pensions and NHS treatment (and unemployment benefit) in the trust that someone else will be paying for ours later. The only people that can make sure that happens is the Govt. They have to ensure there is enough money coming in to cover that implied contract that you signed up to by paying tax and NI all those years. Any Govt that lets big business and those that can afford to pay more tax to get off lightly isn't living up to that contract and doesn't deserve the job.
If Labour had got in and followed their manifesto, I would have had to pay more tax and national insurance and the company that I'm a Director of would have paid more corporation tax. I have less call on what is covered by tax and NI (I've never been unemployed, I'm fortunate to never to have been seriously ill, I don't have children so don't rely on schools) than many people do but I have absolutely no problem paying a bit more if it means that those services and safety nets are in place for those that need it. If I'm ever in the position to need them myself I'll be very grateful to everyone else who has paid to make them available for me as well.
I've read it again and thought about it. State pensions come out of the welfare budget, which is what I said (and what the Govt call that budget). Unemployment benefit comes out of the same budget. That doesn't mean that someone that has a state pension is on benefits and that isn't what I said. So I stick by my post and the sarcasm it included.
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Deluded. Corbyn is a terrorist groupie who has always advocated chaos. His sums dont add up and he will open the door to mass immigration to prop his puppet leadership up. Thios man is the biggest threat to national security since Adolf Hitler.
White collar crime is a phrase coined by the press, it includes both "legal" as well illegal modes of money appropriation.
We can argue the point between ISA's and "legal" loopholes till the cows come home but if you're predisposed to believing that morality and the spirit of the law are irrelevant then nothing will come of it.
You and I can both partake of legal and openly advertised tax efficient means of savings such as ISA's (SO CAN GREEN and his wife) that's the difference. Try and see if HMRC will entertain you trying to wangle out of X grands worth of due taxes by saying your wife owns the company and is non domicile. The loopholes are in place for the rich only, ordinary people simply don't have access to either the advice or the mechanism to make it work.
Don't forget also that all the monies nicked by such means ends up in untraceable foreign accounts earning interest and of course never paying any back in return. It's what is wrong with our planet. Do you know why property is nearly impossible to buy now for the young in places like London ? It's hooky money from abroad (being laundered effectively) which snaps up everything creating a false market value, the rents being charged in turn will make you faint. The victim is the ordinary person whom successive governments have sold down the river by turning a blind eye to far too many issues.
That's how it is now and how it's been for a good number of years, but it's not how it started out. Grasping Chancellors saw a revenue stream and simply couldn't keep their fingers out.
Please explain how SERPS fits in with your theory.
Bebo
Well-known member
SERPS was an extra payment. If you paid in and haven't started claiming yet then they're shafting you even more with this new system. I know several people coming up to retirement age who are losing out significantly by the new pension arrangements introduced by Osborne.
But its tye government that are shafting you, not some poor sod claiming unemployment benefit.
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I know what SERPS was and paid into it all my working life. Some of it undoubtedly went towards unemployment benefit payments, that was always understood. But of course back then there were only 2 types of state benefit. By the time Golden Brown left the Treasury there were, IIRC, 51 different benefits. I firmly believe that society should step up for people in need but I live in a largely working class town and one way or another I've known 10 or 12 people receiving benefits (and still know several). Every single one of them is or was conning the system in one way or another, usually several ways. It's a lifestyle choice for all of them and in their terms it beats the hell out of working for wages, especially since most of them did regular cash jobs such as gardening - including those claiming incapacity benefit. It rankles with me that such people are commonplace and that NI contributions from working people help to fund them. Sure, there are some decent, honourable people in need of government help but in my experience, a large chunk of the benefits paid out, probably the largest chunk, is going to wasters and scroungers.
Paul120
Well-known member
Gordon Brown robbed all working pensions. Ultimatley bringing around the demise of the final salary pension for many. I have no sympathy fpr the likes of Phillip Green who wriggled as much ss posdsble to shirk his responsibilities by dumping the business after taking the profits of M&S for his own pocket and even more contemp with Brown. Hope it lays on his concience when the 1000's that though they had talen a job of planned on a reasonable retirement end up on the breadline as there is not enough time or available spatecincome to make up the shortfall. Bstard.
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