Abuse of Referees

[El Spavo]

Well, I've only been shooting properly for about 2 months or so now, and only about 4 days out with 100 on each, but as much as I'm loving it it baffles me why people take this so seriously in the sense that they can spoil it for others... isn't it supposed to be enjoyable and fun for all, I mean isn't that what sport and hobbies are ultimately?? It's like the way my other sport, football, has gone over the last ten years. Luckily I switch off from all the cobblers that the uber obsessive throw around, but it is annoying that they can't remember to take it a little bit with a sense of joie de vivre and lighten up.

Got my first ever competition this friday at Bisley, shooting for the Royal Berkshire FIre & Rescue team and I'm really looking forward to it. Don't care if I hit 20 or even 10 out of 100, it's gonna be a great day out.

 

[Jonny English]

I'm afraid some people have forgotten that it's a hobby and is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. We have met some out and out pillocks in the shooting scene, but we have met 10 times more really nice folk that were a pleasure to shoot with.

I know people invest a lot of time and money into it and they feel they must achieve certain scores, but at the end of the day it's a hobby and a break away from work, chill out and make sure it puts a smile on your face.

 

[Jeremy Baker]

Well here we go , good comments from Will & Jeremy , but easily answered .

General Rules 3.2 

Referee shall ensure that the competitors comply with and compete according to all rules; and ensure that the equity of the competition is maintained at all times.

3.7

The Referee will make a decision on whether a target is 'Hit ' 'Lost'  or 'No-Target' on these matters the Referees decision is final and mark the decision on the squad or score sheet.

Many of you may remember a similar incident last Year at Hodnet with a Driven Target where shooting it as a crosser dropped pellets on another stand to the right .

In both instances a sign was displayed that clearly read 'Driven'  NOT Crosser  or Teal or Going Away .

One complainant asked "show me where the CPSA rules stipulate that I must shoot it in front and not to the side." 

General Rule 3.2  Applies 

We are here to run a safe fair shoot to enable everyone to compete on an open and level playing field .

 Yes I must agree that Rabbit limits need to be clearly defined by a log or bale but there is no excuse for rudeness and being argumentive .

At the weekend it clearly stated 'Driven' every squad was informed and all but two competitors complied . It was at the Course setters Instruction and the Ground Owners insistance who told me I was in charge and he would back me to the end . I did not complain to anyone or the organisers about the abuse but fellow competitors did , that's when they found out matey boy who was an 'A' class shot had deliberately entered in 'C' class .

It is all very simple really, Rules are Rules and Referees are in charge of the stand.

I didn't shoot this shoot 

Were there instructions on the menu dictating a limit?

I still can't see where a referee can tell a shooter how to stand in the stand to address a target?

 

[schmokinn]

The “problem” with the instruction to shoot in a different way is interpretation and confrontation. Aggro for the ref if you like. I would cure the cause not deal with the issue. Put bars on cage etc.

I don't like bars on the cage as they distract me,i over compensate thinking i am going to hit my gun on them.

If somebody struggles to understand the difference between driven and crosser they have a problem,the ref is there to enforce the rules and should be respected people who cause "agro" have no place on the shooting ground.

There is to much of this dumbing down in this world to make things easy!

I didn't shoot this shoot 

Were there instructions on the menu dictating a limit?

I still can't see where a referee can tell a shooter how to stand in the stand to address a target?

You have a problem understanding the spoken word then?

The referee having been there for the whole shoot i am pretty sure would know what is going on and would have been instructed by the shoot organiser.

The event was sqadded and instruction given to every squad before shooting the stand...you are obviously somebody who would have argued the toss.

When you go into a stand that you have not watched you listen to the referees description of the target and act on that so really just part of that then.

Of course your own exaggerated belief in your self importance may lead you to mistakenly believe that you have more authority than the ref.

 

[wylye]

Had a poor nights sleep then did we?

 

[shootinguru]

DRIVEN means DRIVEN!   If you cannot shoot driven then find a coach!  There are always anuses that want to bend the rules to suit themselves or to cause annoyance !  The referee has final say!

 

[Jeremy Baker]

I don't like bars on the cage as they distract me,i over compensate thinking i am going to hit my gun on them.

If somebody struggles to understand the difference between driven and crosser they have a problem,the ref is there to enforce the rules and should be respected people who cause "agro" have no place on the shooting ground.

There is to much of this dumbing down in this world to make things easy!

You have a problem understanding the spoken word then?

The referee having been there for the whole shoot i am pretty sure would know what is going on and would have been instructed by the shoot organiser.

The event was sqadded and instruction given to every squad before shooting the stand...you are obviously somebody who would have argued the toss.

When you go into a stand that you have not watched you listen to the referees description of the target and act on that so really just part of that then.

Of course your own exaggerated belief in your self importance may lead you to mistakenly believe that you have more authority than the ref.

Simply asked a question. 

Its a forum and the purpose of a forum is to ask questions.

DRIVEN means DRIVEN!   If you cannot shoot driven then find a coach!  There are always anuses that want to bend the rules to suit themselves or to cause annoyance !  The referee has final say!

Does that mean in the field a shooter can't turn to take a bird crossing/Over a shoulder when its safe to do so?

 

[Guest]

Simply asked a question. 

Its a forum and the purpose of a forum is to ask questions.

Does that mean in the field a shooter can't turn to take a bird crossing/Over a shoulder when its safe to do so?

You know fine well they this thread is about drive CLAYS!!! Why are you being obtuse Jeremy? Sounds like you are one of the type who can’t shoot driven and won’t follow rules

 

[Jeremy Baker]

You know fine well they this thread is about drive CLAYS!!! Why are you being obtuse Jeremy? Sounds like you are one of the type who can’t shoot driven and won’t follow rules

I am asking a question whats wrong with that?

Clay shooting is a replication of shooting in the field. 

I shoot driven fine thanks. 

 

[Doug Pinnegar]

In my mind,, the menu displaying the target information is describing the presentation, not the shooting style. A 'driven'  means a clay that mimics a driven game bird so I would expect it to be coming towards me; possibly with a curl to the left or the right. I'm with Jeremy on that point. 

The only occasion where a constraint should be put on to a shooters approach is for safety. In this case, taking as a driven and not a crosser in case there is an issue with shot fallout. OR another example would be shooting a rabbit before a marker to avoid shot going towards another area of the course if the rabbit was left too late. I'm agreed with the referees on this point (as long as it is consistently enforced!)

 

[Jeremy Baker]

In my mind,, the menu displaying the target information is describing the presentation, not the shooting style. A 'driven'  means a clay that mimics a driven game bird so I would expect it to be coming towards me; possibly with a curl to the left or the right. I'm with Jeremy on that point. 

The only occasion where a constraint should be put on to a shooters approach is for safety. In this case, taking as a driven and not a crosser in case there is an issue with shot fallout. OR another example would be shooting a rabbit before a marker to avoid shot going towards another area of the course if the rabbit was left too late. I'm agreed with the referees on this point (as long as it is consistently enforced!)

I have no issue with the whole thread. 

I am simply asking if

A) it was stipulated on the menu

Z) I can not see where in the rules it says that a referee can tell a shooter how to address a target?

The haters will charge into me for the usual reasons I am used to it

I am simply asking questions raised by the original post.

 

[Sian]

I have no issue with the whole thread. 

I am simply asking if

A) it was stipulated on the menu

Z) I can not see where in the rules it says that a referee can tell a shooter how to address a target?

The haters will charge into me for the usual reasons I am used to it

I am simply asking questions raised by the original post.

J, In answer to your question re: the menu - no it was not on the menu.

 

[Jeremy Baker]

J, In answer to your question re: the menu - no it was not on the menu.

Thanks Sian. 

 

[Sian]

Ironically we are mentioning safety and yet last year in almost the same spot but more to the left we had low quartering birds and the shot left the area directly ahead and shot straight across a pathway being used by people the other side of the hedge.  We stopped shooting and asked for someone to come and rectify the matter either by closing the path or making it safe.  You could hear the shot whistle through the hedgerow.  It was just luck no-one ended up being peppered.

The purests will always want a driven taken in the "driven" way but actually you can safely take most driven in all sorts of ways including my hybrid, quasimodo style.  

 

[paul b]

If theres a limit bar above the cage how can the shot possibly land in a different place by turning sideways?If the ground owners too lazy to fitt a bar then yes i can see why the reff would need to keep telling everyone the limit.

 

[Will Hewland]

If theres a limit bar above the cage how can the shot possibly land in a different place by turning sideways?If the ground owners too lazy to fitt a bar then yes i can see why the reff would need to keep telling everyone the limit.

In this case there was a bar, but the course setter just wanted shooters to address the target as a driven, presumably for a sense of tradition. There was a bonus point if the shooter was wearing tweed and could answer a quiz about Percy Stanbury’s memoirs.

If you want to know whether it is worth stipulating this driven rule, in terms of controversy caused, just read how emotionally this thread has developed. Not worth the difficulty of enforcing it I would say..

 

[Salopian]

All very good comments , but the naysayers are missing the whole point , one which needs to be addressed and clarified , perhaps by the Governing bodies .

A referee is in charge of the stand and the conduct of the participants. The Ground owner stipulated that this target was to be shot as a driven target , out in front or directly overhead .

I conveyed that message to every individual , so do I really need to be insulted , verbally abused and called a "F'ing 'unt ' because of a competitors inability ?

Answering Jeremy's question , what is wrong with following an instruction , clearly stated and a reason given?

One thing is for sure , I will endeavour to remain , polite , civil and enforce the rules , if a competitor takes exception to this I will inform them that I have marked them as a zero for that stand and a note will be forwarded to the organisers and the Governing body as to why I took that action.

I repeat read the rules and learn them. Politeness and civilty cost nothing .

 

[schmokinn]

Does that mean in the field a shooter can't turn to take a bird crossing/Over a shoulder when its safe to do so?

Their not on a shooting ground governed by rules or governed by rules of a competition.

The likelyhood of safety issues to other shooters is much lower because they are not spread around you in different directions.

And if the shoot captain told you not to do it you wouldn't so a bit of a dumb comment.

 

[Will Hewland]

All very good comments , but the naysayers are missing the whole point , one which needs to be addressed and clarified , perhaps by the Governing bodies .

A referee is in charge of the stand and the conduct of the participants. The Ground owner stipulated that this target was to be shot as a driven target , out in front or directly overhead .

I conveyed that message to every individual , so do I really need to be insulted , verbally abused and called a "F'ing 'unt ' because of a competitors inability ?

Answering Jeremy's question , what is wrong with following an instruction , clearly stated and a reason given?

One thing is for sure , I will endeavour to remain , polite , civil and enforce the rules , if a competitor takes exception to this I will inform them that I have marked them as a zero for that stand and a note will be forwarded to the organisers and the Governing body as to why I took that action.

I repeat read the rules and learn them. Politeness and civilty cost nothing .

Agree Peter. My boss told me when I was 17, “I you don’t like the rules, see if you can get them changed. But follow the rules”. The issue of same for all is critical and of course abusive behaviour is unforgivable, especially as the ref is the messenger, not the rule maker. (I still say if the rule maker just left this matter be, then the whole issue goes away..)

 

[Jeremy Baker]

Their not on a shooting ground governed by rules or governed by rules of a competition.

The likelyhood of safety issues to other shooters is much lower because they are not spread around you in different directions.

And if the shoot captain told you not to do it you wouldn't so a bit of a dumb comment.

"They're" is I think the word you're after above?

Bit of a dumb mistake. 

I have yet to meet a shoot captain who would tell me how to shoot the birds.............................

There's always time I guess.