Cabinet fitting - Is this ok?

[El Spavo]

This is absolutely fine - passed as recently as last year. Ignore ‘Big G’. If in any further doubt ask your FEO they’ll advise and confirm. 

Whereas when I asked my feo in Hampshire, he said there was absolutely no way he'd pass it if I bolted it above the skirting board in my house cos he's seen the remains of one ripped out before due to leverage being applied from below, the thief taking it off and away quite easily and marks left to show how it was done.

I had to chop it out and have it against the floor, so don't take ant's first sentence as gospel! 

Speak to your feo, it's totally dependant on what they individually want and absolutely nothing else. 

 

[Big G]

Exactly my thoughts.

 

[Steve1066]

Quote

There you go jonytmo, thousands of suggestions, aren’t you glad you asked

 

[ColinD]

No one can give you the proper way to do it, but a quick call to your local FEO will

 

[Daz W]

Whereas when I asked my feo in Hampshire, he said there was absolutely no way he'd pass it if I bolted it above the skirting board in my house cos he's seen the remains of one ripped out before due to leverage being applied from below, the thief taking it off and away quite easily and marks left to show how it was done.

I had to chop it out and have it against the floor, so don't take ant's first sentence as gospel! 

Speak to your feo, it's totally dependant on what they individually want and absolutely nothing else. 

Overkill in my opinion, but I'm not the FLO. Mine is mounted above the skirting, but between where the floor joists are. Try putting a bottle jack of something similar underneath it it'll end up downstairs. If it's above a solid concrete floor then its maybe feasible, if there's enough room underneath.  If the theif is bringing in enough equipment to use a jack to get it off the wall then what's to stop them bringing in a plasma cutter? Where do "reasonable" precautions end?

 

[jontymo]

Thank you everyone who gave advice - I will wait until closer to the time and discuss with the FLO when the visit date is agreed (whenever that may be).

Enjoy your Sunday and lets leave it there for now!!

Thanks again.

Jon

 

[El Spavo]

Overkill in my opinion, but I'm not the FLO. 

That. I thought it would be okay, but he wanted it so he got it. Only 2 minutes work, just an annoyance 

 

[Westward]

That. I thought it would be okay, but he wanted it so he got it. Only 2 minutes work, just an annoyance 

Sadly that sums up the different ways the police interpret what are nothing more than guidelines from the Home Office. They know perfectly well that if the bad guys want to take your guns they will, because whilst your security might slow them down a bit, there's very little you can do to stop them.

How the safe is mounted is irrelevant as there's really no need for a crowbar when everyone's got an angle grinder. As Jan pointed out a cabinet/safe is not required in law, even if the FEO tries to tell you it is, and my personal view is that having a secret compartment or a safe place somewhere is much more secure than a big steel box that advertises what's inside.

 

[AW13]

Let us know what your FLO says..... I have recently moved house, put mine above the skirting board and await a call for it to be checked!

 

[jontymo]

Let us know what your FLO says..... I have recently moved house, put mine above the skirting board and await a call for it to be checked!

It will be a while as still waiting for my medical info to be sent through and you can't progress your application with Humberside Police until they receive the report from the docs.

 

[ColinD]

How the safe is mounted is irrelevant as there's really no need for a crowbar when everyone's got an angle grinder. As Jan pointed out a cabinet/safe is not required in law, even if the FEO tries to tell you it is, and my personal view is that having a secret compartment or a safe place somewhere is much more secure than a big steel box that advertises what's inside.

This only applies to shotguns, if you have firearms then a safe is required

 

[timps]

It is all about risk assessment and backside covering and I’m bored so here goes.

On your shotgun certificate:- Condition 4 (a)

“The firearms and ammunition [or shotguns] to which the certificate relates must at all times (except in the circumstances set out in paragraph (b) below) be stored securely so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, access to the firearms or ammunition by an unauthorised person.”

As this condition 4(a) is on your certificate it means firearm security is ultimately the responsibility of you the certificate holder and not the police.

However, when it comes to grants and renewals the law states :-

“28 Special provisions about shot gun certificates.

(1)Subject to subsection (1A) below, a shot gun certificate shall be granted or, as the case may be, renewed by the chief officer of police if he is satisfied that the applicant can be permitted to possess a shot gun without danger to the public safety or to the peace”

Therefore, if the Chief officer of police (represented by the FEO) is not satisfied about your security then they cannot legally grant or renew.

Should this conflict of responsibility become an impasse then your only recourse is for a judge to rule on it, which will more than likely cost you because in certificate disputes costs are not normally awarded unless the police acted unreasonable and unreasonable is set at a very high bar.

If you read BS 7558 which is the British standards for gun cabinets, you will understand their thinking.

It starts off in the introduction by saying they assume the average potential thief is an opportunist and not a determined criminal specifically seeking to obtain firearms, who in their own words would be difficult to counter effectively by inexpensive means. So, they are not interested in that type of thief as they accept you are never going to stop them without a bank vault which is why the “reasonably practicable” bit of the legislation is there.

Therefore, all they want to know is can the cabinet withstand a 5-minute attack from common hand-tools and not noisy power tools or specialist tools or knowledge.

The tools listed in BS 7558 are Club hammer 1.8 kg, Jemmy, Flat cold chisel overall length 200 mm and blade width 25 mm.

If they can get the cabinet off the wall within 5 mins then they can leave with it and take as long as they want to get in and create as much noise as they like, this type of theft has happened hence why they are concerned about it and they specifically mention the type of fixings needed to be used to prevent easy removal in BS 7558.

In the case of the OP I know a FEO has refused this type of installation as he has seen where thieves used a car jack from the home owners garage in the gap beneath to pry it from the wall quickly and take the cabinet with them.

The remedy agreed for that refusal was to coach bolt a large block of hard wood in the gap beneath to prevent a jack being placed underneath.

Obviously, who knows how your FEO will see it but welcome to the world of badly written firearms legislation and conflicting responsibilities at renewal/grant time.

 

[Lloyd]

my personal view is that having a secret compartment or a safe place somewhere is much more secure than a big steel box that advertises what's inside.

Agreed. My safe is to all intents and purposes invisible. You’d have to first have know where to look and then exactly what to look for. By my rough calculations it would then take a 2.6 tonne force applied at ten locations to break the cabinet free but before doing that, you would have to do a lot of chiselling of masonry first in order to establish the leverage. I’m therefore confident that this would take an opportunist criminal more than the prescribed 5 minutes to attack and remove. I’m sure it would take at least that long to even discover it. 
Apart from my involvement with this forum, a private account on Instagram where I keep a visual record of my shooting and my registration with the CPSA, there isn’t any other form of advertising to folks outside the shooting fraternity that I shoot

 

[ColinD]

All that time to get in Lloyd and they find it's empty , have you had any luck or has Covid struck again with the delays

 

[Nick Selby]

My cabinet is bolted to an exterior wall and raised above the skirting board. FEO tugged at it and then said it was absolutely fine and has been checked a few times now. It does sound like individual FEOs see things differently though. Like others have said, only way you will find out is if you actually ask the FEO.

 

[LeedsZeppelin]

Ultimately it's down to the FEO's judgement. 

I have a 6" gap underneath my cabinet due to pipes running underneath it. But the space around the cabinet isn't sufficient for a pry bar of any significant length to be used on it. 

 

[jontymo]

A quick update - the FEO has just left and was happy with my fitting of the cabinet, in the end I cut out the skirting and fitted the cabinet upside down with the door opening from the wall side as advised on here, the FEO did say I would have been ok with a box underneath the cabinet to raise the height but he was more than happy with how I had done it. 6/8 week wait now, all good!

 

[Daz W]

Nice one. I'm sure my licence only took 2 weeks from the inspection/interview, but that was a couple of weeks prior to lockdown 1. Now the big question is, in 6 to 8 weeks what's going in the cabinet?

 

[jontymo]

Thanks Daz for the advice on fitting my cabinet upside down- currently between SP1 or 3, then 525 or 725 and MK38 so not got a clue , need to get this lockdown over and get out and try all these models and go with what feels good, set the budget at around 2k!

 

[Daz W]

And now it really starts! Beretta vs Browning vs Miroku and so on....... 

Personally I went in knowing that my first gun probably wont be my last, so looked at the SP and the 525, as both have a good resale value.  Ended up with a 2nd hand 30" 525 sporting laminate, which was lucky as they hadn't been out long.  The Browning felt a better fit at the time., but needed tweaking. As I'm 6ft 4ins the stock was a bit short, so I've put some spacers in. Unfortunately as a result of this my head is further down the comb = lower on the rib. So then the comb needed to be raised a bit. So for me an adjustable comb was a must.  If the Browning had of fitted me off the shelf with no tweaks, I would have probably bought a Miroku Mk38, as they're very very similar, just no adjustable comb.

Now I've had it a nearly a year and shot a few other guns I've decided I like a beavertail  fore-end better than the schnabel one, and also I shoot better with 32" barrels. So now I'm shopping for an XS Ultra, which is still a 525, just with bells and whistles.

I would suggest having a few lessons at a club that has various student guns. They'll most likely be 525s or SPs. That'll give you a starting point before you drop nearly £2K on one.

This is all my opinion of course. Someone will be along shortly with a completely different view to mine. Welcome to the rabbit hole.