I've shot 24g in sporting and FITASC, the only disadvantage is the thought going round your head that you have 4g less shot in your cartridges than everyone else...so long as you are allowed to shoot 28g loads, I will...if the rules changed tomorrow making everything 24g I wouldn't lose a seconds sleep...so long as everyone is shooting the same max load.
Cartridge choice
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It does make a difference and there is no arguing about that what so ever, that you cannot detect the difference is another matter altogether! With a well designed cartridge if you suddenly increase the number of objects in the pattern you must by probability increase your chances of breaking the target and likewise if you suddenly reduce the number of objects in the pattern you must reduce the chances of breaking the target. Another way of thinking about it would be to adopt a model where the actual mass and size of the pellet made no difference to pattern and in ability of the pellet to break a target... in that instance everybody would shoot with 9 or smaller because you would have more objects with in the pattern. Now flick back to the actual by increasing the load you ,if the cartridge is well designed, arrive at the same state. In short if the cartridge manufacturer is doing their job correctly the extra 4g will make a difference. Naturally better shooters will probably notice this difference less than average shooter because more often than not they will be placing the target in the centre of the pattern...probably why you don't notice a difference.
Another way to think about it is to ask yourself why a manufacturer would deliberately design a 24g load to be weighted to the centre of the pattern? If you have lees number of objects to put in the pattern better to concentrate them slightly in the centre... a good shot could easily get away with these sort of cartridges.
:locomotive: :thankyou: Coaaa...rrect. It absolutely never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly logical minds that bend over backwards to deny the bleedin obvious in favour of self mockery. It is not even up for discussion, less is NEVER more (recoil problems notwithstanding) and less is NEVER equal to more.
I actually disagree here, it is the better shooter who will notice the subtle differences, despite their prowess in more often centring the target. This is actually fairly simple to see if you think about the mechanics of it, even a centred target WILL receive fewer strikes and the break signature will accordingly be different.
I have done a fair bit of 24g comparison shooting now in real comp situations and thru different chokes, I was never convinced before that 24g pattern tighter (as we're often told) and I'm not now. If you study cartridge tests in fact the side by side results never exhibit enough of a difference to back up these rhetorical assumptions.
My own feelings are that the cause of these old wives tales are to do with the brain playing tricks on our subconscious. There is no question it is harder to get good breaks with 24g on decent birds compared to 28g, I am convinced this is because of the affects of a sparser, less useful (by definition) outer as well as inner core which makes greater demands on accuracy. THAT is what causes people to think the pattern has magically tightened.
Many years have passed since I offered a money challenge to anyone who would pit 24g against 28g on pattern plate testing. You will find one that will pattern tight through a given choke but overall there will be no quantifiable difference, certainly nothing approaching the at least 10-15% needed to give substance to the superstition.
shootinguru
Well-known member
:fie: The funny thing when arguing about 24/28 gramme loads is when O Trench was 36 grammes the scores were lower than today, fatigue? I would say so.
Fitasc sporting 28 grammes was 36 grammes scores better fatigue? probably as quite a few shooters shot chips.
I shot Clever 24 grammes at Fitasc due to a flinch for 3-5 years and then changed to Hull 28g Comp X softer than 24g
Clevers 90% cured. :hunter:
Fitasc sporting 28 grammes was 36 grammes scores better fatigue? probably as quite a few shooters shot chips.
I shot Clever 24 grammes at Fitasc due to a flinch for 3-5 years and then changed to Hull 28g Comp X softer than 24g
Clevers 90% cured. :hunter:
Hammy my supposition was with respect to scores. Also there are good shooter and good shooters 
Shooters of the ability of MD et.al will know their shooting inside out but a really good club shooter is just desperate to see the target break. Even so I see other shooters, and myself, miss and not have a clue where they missed. I think the same applies to even good shots they miss but need someone to tell them where they missed.
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Another very valid point to be made, from what I saw in the video, it would be appear to be pure guess work to think that you know where you were in relation to the target by analysing chip fragment pattern and direction after a hit. Wonko posted a great ultra slow mo video of all manners of breaks a while back... they all look more or less the same. The point of the video was I think to prove that a shooter could not tell if the were slightly in front, behind, below or above centre when hitting the target simply by watching the pattern and direction of the bits.
Shooters of the ability of MD et.al will know their shooting inside out but a really good club shooter is just desperate to see the target break. Even so I see other shooters, and myself, miss and not have a clue where they missed. I think the same applies to even good shots they miss but need someone to tell them where they missed.Edit
Another very valid point to be made, from what I saw in the video, it would be appear to be pure guess work to think that you know where you were in relation to the target by analysing chip fragment pattern and direction after a hit. Wonko posted a great ultra slow mo video of all manners of breaks a while back... they all look more or less the same. The point of the video was I think to prove that a shooter could not tell if the were slightly in front, behind, below or above centre when hitting the target simply by watching the pattern and direction of the bits.
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ips
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Scores at dtl for instance are now higher than they ever were with 32g and I suspect ot scores are also higher than they were with 28. Not saying because of lighter loads but it obviously made no difference. I am an average ot shooter and my scores are no worse with 24. I believe only centre pattern will kill ot or abt targets therefore it makes no perceivable difference
"The funny thing when arguing about 24/28 gramme loads is when O Trench was 36 grammes the scores were lower than today, fatigue? I would say so."
Assuming the cartridges produced the same velocity of shot they must have kicked like a mule? So it must be fair to say that if you compare 36g scores vs 24g scores there are a few reasons why there could be differences. I mean with 24g vs 36g you are having to propel 50% more load at the same speed target...
Assuming the cartridges produced the same velocity of shot they must have kicked like a mule? So it must be fair to say that if you compare 36g scores vs 24g scores there are a few reasons why there could be differences. I mean with 24g vs 36g you are having to propel 50% more load at the same speed target...
You could be right Ian. I would say that with few exceptions 24g cartridges have a higher mv than an equivalent 28g from the same manuf for example Fiocchi Fblk , I could be wrong but I think that is largely down to what is acceptable in terms of recoil and pattern. Logic tells me for the 24g to match the 28g the pattern must be weighted slightly to the centre... probably why you don't perceive a difference, if the shot was evenly distributed across the pattern I think you would notice a difference if you counted you scores over a long period of time, also stop cheating 24g is the max for OT
. As to scores now and then well many sports prove that over the years competitors have actually become better! Snooker is a super example of how a sport can change.Yet another rhetorical old wives tale is of course the oft repeated assertion that scores went up once we switched to lower gram shells. There is no way of quantifying this, there are/were simply no scientific data kept, compiled or retained to prove this one way or the other, it is simply a line delivered in shell articles. We have had straights in every discipline in every era.
It is absolutely true that scores today in ESP as well as other disciplines such as Skeet and DTL are higher but that is simply down to two huge factors, firstly the sheer increase in numbers of participants in the sport today as opposed to say the mid 70's and secondly the wherewithal of a greater number of people being able to afford the time and money to dedicate to practice. Better equipment has also helped.
Fatigue is indeed your enemy so 36g loads are bad news even for those who are less prone to recoil problems but everything has a happy medium, a point at which most requirements are met without reducing one or more elements to the point where chance becomes a factor. My personal belief is that we have that in 28g loads, as others have said I too would be perfectly happy to switch to 24g if it ever became compulsory but it isn't a match for the 28g.
It is absolutely true that scores today in ESP as well as other disciplines such as Skeet and DTL are higher but that is simply down to two huge factors, firstly the sheer increase in numbers of participants in the sport today as opposed to say the mid 70's and secondly the wherewithal of a greater number of people being able to afford the time and money to dedicate to practice. Better equipment has also helped.
Fatigue is indeed your enemy so 36g loads are bad news even for those who are less prone to recoil problems but everything has a happy medium, a point at which most requirements are met without reducing one or more elements to the point where chance becomes a factor. My personal belief is that we have that in 28g loads, as others have said I too would be perfectly happy to switch to 24g if it ever became compulsory but it isn't a match for the 28g.
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Hammy if a sport over the years does not progress then what is going on? I agree with what you are saying re competitors and if you look at the modern shooting champion he/she is a thorough professional and devotes hours a day practicing their craft, however even club champions have greater time and money to spend on the training ground.
One aspect of this debate that I did not go into for fear of reigniting another debate about the budget cartridge vs the premium quality cartridge. In that debate we had a school of though that broadly postulated that a cartridge manufactured from the best materials and had greater emphasis placed in quality control was likely to out perform a cartridge made from inferior grade materials and had less quality control by one or two targets per hundred. Here we have a situation where it is said, or doubted ?, that a cartridge manufacturer using those very same top quality components and quality control but including an extra 4g of top quality shot per cartridge cannot, by design, produce a cartridge the better to break a target that can be detected over those same hundred targets by the average club shot... I don't believe that! The only way of testing that though is in a double blind testing... I would like to see the outcome of that type of study.
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I personally would like to see the cartridge specs for trap harmonised to 24g for all.
One aspect of this debate that I did not go into for fear of reigniting another debate about the budget cartridge vs the premium quality cartridge. In that debate we had a school of though that broadly postulated that a cartridge manufactured from the best materials and had greater emphasis placed in quality control was likely to out perform a cartridge made from inferior grade materials and had less quality control by one or two targets per hundred. Here we have a situation where it is said, or doubted ?, that a cartridge manufacturer using those very same top quality components and quality control but including an extra 4g of top quality shot per cartridge cannot, by design, produce a cartridge the better to break a target that can be detected over those same hundred targets by the average club shot... I don't believe that! The only way of testing that though is in a double blind testing... I would like to see the outcome of that type of study.
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I personally would like to see the cartridge specs for trap harmonised to 24g for all.
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In essence you get what you put in. Many's the time someone will happily profess that 24g shells perform (just as well) downrange, because (they so believe) the characteristics of such loads predisposes them to suffer fewer misshaped individual pellets hence ensuring that they not only pattern tighter but that they can end up with a similar number of pellets in the useful core of the patterns.
They won't, they can't, there are plenty of substantiated, actual pattern tests that have shown time after time that any difference between one load and another is down to components/chokes/air density/etc. In fact I believe an English chap who posts on US sites has compiled a huge amount of pattern data which you can purchase in downloadable format which concludes that not only do patterns fail to tighten merely because of less shot charge but he also blows apart the myth that speed blows patterns.
The fun bit is though that shooting is full of accepted myths and untruths.
They won't, they can't, there are plenty of substantiated, actual pattern tests that have shown time after time that any difference between one load and another is down to components/chokes/air density/etc. In fact I believe an English chap who posts on US sites has compiled a huge amount of pattern data which you can purchase in downloadable format which concludes that not only do patterns fail to tighten merely because of less shot charge but he also blows apart the myth that speed blows patterns.
The fun bit is though that shooting is full of accepted myths and untruths.
David Paul Gag
Well-known member
Hi Guys thanks for the response!
Just a bit of background for you.
I am a Veteran and had a operation on my shoulder in January and am recovering at present, hence the posting!
I used to be shooting a big heavy gun up to
6 months or so ago,but due to my shoulder l decided to shoot with my semi auto and 24g loads !
Well shooting evo's 24g seemed to work for me.
Hamster had mentioned in one of his previous posts something to the effect that 24g will shatter a clay
where a 28g will dust it - which I could not disagree with!
I will always now shoot 24g what I need to decide on is which one? Softer the better. I'm not so concerned about speed but would like it to hit hard,any suggestions? Happy Shooting!
Dave
Just a bit of background for you.
I am a Veteran and had a operation on my shoulder in January and am recovering at present, hence the posting!
I used to be shooting a big heavy gun up to
6 months or so ago,but due to my shoulder l decided to shoot with my semi auto and 24g loads !
Well shooting evo's 24g seemed to work for me.
Hamster had mentioned in one of his previous posts something to the effect that 24g will shatter a clay
where a 28g will dust it - which I could not disagree with!
I will always now shoot 24g what I need to decide on is which one? Softer the better. I'm not so concerned about speed but would like it to hit hard,any suggestions? Happy Shooting!
Dave
Will Hewland
Well-known member
Express High Velocity are very smooth. I used to use them when I dabbled with skeet.
I haven't shot a bad 24g load so they're all pretty good, your main criteria is finding one that is of a high enough quality that it will reliably cycle through the semi auto, some won't.
Another aspect will of course be the type of clay shooting you do and how much importance you place on speed V recoil, bear in mind they are all going to be softer to shoot but a few will be faster (less soft) but predictably better at delivering a tad more kinetic energy to the target at distance.
If you're used to using 7.5's when shooting 28g, one advantageous move would be to drop down to 8's to maintain pattern density, this won't always be possible with all makes.
shootinguru
Well-known member
Dave, I'm not going to get in a pi***ng match with Hampster over 24g v 36g shells and scores cos he will try and twist it round and round to make himself look important!
Try 24g Clevers, they are the right price and kill very well.
Try 24g Clevers, they are the right price and kill very well.
For what it is worth as a novice shooter my cartridge choice comes down to availability and recoil. I have settled with Clever T2 28g at the moment because the shoot very softly and I see no difference in my score vs other cartridges that are a bit more thumpy albeit cheaper! I would try the 24g version but won't because I cannot for some reason get these free del. I have a batch of pricey Clevers T3 and T4's coming because after the budget vs premium debate I have to de bug that one and I might try the T4 24g because I an get those free del
David Paul Gag
Well-known member
Thanks for the posts againI like fitasc /compaK,s I have no probs with recycle
Evo's I use an a400 Beretta its not light but lighter than my k-80
Speed I feel is not terribly important what do you think?
