Cartridge choice
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The Evo 28g loads that I have shot a few thou of were very good, decent components and the speed was to my liking, the thou 24g loads I recently got through are also very good but for me not quite as fast as I like. Their recoil aspect is up there with the very best and at £165ish they have to be excellent value.
You get used to the sight pictures if you use something long enough but I have heard good things about Hull ProOne 24g's which are available in 8's although quite pricey.
There there, :nurse: your demons won't leave you alone will they. Excellent advice not getting into arguments when out of your depth, especially if the other guy is prepared to use foul means like facts, data and logic. Not to mention offering to pay to be proved wrong.
ickeat: 
shootinguru
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Well Hampster if you wish to be proved correct, contact the CPSA and go back to the days when O/T was 36g and see what scores the British Open O/T and other OT championships were won on? and then compare the scores to recent years scores won on 28g shells. the targets are as hard as the 70s but the scores are higher,
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Not wanting to damp down your conflict ... But you have to think that there are reasons other than the shot load for the scores being higher ? I would just site the competitors actually being more competent and the equipment the are using being better that of course includes better designed and manufactured cartridges. I still think there is more to shooting than a cartridge load so lets here it for the superior competitor's skills they are undoubtedly the biggest contributor to the scores achieved :superman:
... But you have to think that there are reasons other than the shot load for the scores being higher ? I would just site the competitors actually being more competent and the equipment the are using being better that of course includes better designed and manufactured cartridges. I still think there is more to shooting than a cartridge load so lets here it for the superior competitor's skills they are undoubtedly the biggest contributor to the scores achieved :superman:Possible but easily explainable if you'd paid attention. Back in the day as no doubt you could testify, there would have been relatively few participants in clay disciplines, coupled to fewer shooters having the financial capacity to put in multi thousand practice rounds and of course a less well developed grasp of the need for recoil management shooting somewhat less suitable guns.
It isn't difficult to see why today we have people putting in monster scores with better guns, better initial coaching, better understanding of gun fit, mind management tuition, etc, etc.
I am not saying big scores aren't possible with less shot, merely that to pretend they're better because :boredom: the patterns are superior is simply absurd.
ips
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I remain convinced that for trap (at least) 24g pattern better and generally shoot better than 28 and way better than the 32g we used to shoot. It could be a lot to do with general comfort and lack of muzzle flip but whatever it is they seem better to me.
shootinguru
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I did'nt say that, I believe the scores are higher in OT because there is less recoil, muzzle jump, etc but the biggest factor is fatigue or rather lack of it?
If you shot Fitasc sporting back in th 80's you could see the guys using 36g on 70 yard crossers, the shot took 20 minutes to get there or so it seemed,
If you shot Fitasc sporting back in th 80's you could see the guys using 36g on 70 yard crossers, the shot took 20 minutes to get there or so it seemed,
My three penneth , when we shot 32gram and had to change to 28gram AJ Smith moaned his head off .
About a year later AJ was telling everyone how brilliant 28gram was.
Express used to do a 24gram in a mauve case , absolutely wonderful cartridge.
A friend of mine is a very good shot, he uses Fiocchi Fblack 8's and Gold Trap 7 1/2s.
Recently his good lady made us both look positively shabby on a VERY distant target using 21gram Fiocchi TT's.
There was absolutely nothing wrong with the quality of the kills at all.
Now would any of us use 21grams in a competition ? Probably no chance.
Another anecdote , Hodnet presents superb targets that test the best in any of their competitions. You can then shoot those very same targets with equal success on a practice day , a lesson , or a corporate day using Hodnet's own corporate cartridge which is 21gram.
About a year later AJ was telling everyone how brilliant 28gram was.
Express used to do a 24gram in a mauve case , absolutely wonderful cartridge.
A friend of mine is a very good shot, he uses Fiocchi Fblack 8's and Gold Trap 7 1/2s.
Recently his good lady made us both look positively shabby on a VERY distant target using 21gram Fiocchi TT's.
There was absolutely nothing wrong with the quality of the kills at all.
Now would any of us use 21grams in a competition ? Probably no chance.
Another anecdote , Hodnet presents superb targets that test the best in any of their competitions. You can then shoot those very same targets with equal success on a practice day , a lesson , or a corporate day using Hodnet's own corporate cartridge which is 21gram.
ips
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I wonder if mfrs have put a lot of effort into making trap guns as good as possible with 24 and if cartridge mfrs have put a lot of effort into making 24 as good as possible given the fact that they have less in them so need to perform very well to offset that fact.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Stop stalking me
:lol: , define the difference between a Trap or a Fitasc target that you can't find on an ESP round ? Yet another puerile *** ! Nothing I have said is mine in particular or designed for my self importance, it's all there in the open if you care to look and ask the relevant questions instead of blindly accepting everything you read and hear.
A young English shooter quite recently shot two consecutive 100 target rounds of UF in competition without missing a target... that had nothing what so ever to do with the shot load of the cartridge he used END OF! If you don't believe that you cannot see the wood for the trees. Shooters today are generally better than the were thirty or forty years ago and there are more of them at that level. International OT trap competitions are being decided on a final single barrel competition which often goes to a sudden death shot off.... not because of the shot load in the cartridges being used its because the shooters are brilliant professional sportsmen... if international OT went back to 28g loads these guys would probably never miss a target the game would become one of endurance! Straight 25 target first barrel kills are not uncommon! Shooting is no different to any skill game. A very recent review of the game of snooker was shown on TV the other month. You might think there is no correlation between snooker and trap shooting? I would say there is, it is a game of skill in which competence is enhanced by practice. Players are starting younger in that sport and are mentally better prepared for what they are trying to achieve , I believe exactly the same situation exists in shooting more shooters starting younger are becoming far more skilled and mentally assured of their goal. This is one very good reason why high scores are achieved by shooters using 24g loads for trap games.
ips
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No one is saying 24 are better per se. Merely that they are no worse for being 4G light. However there is no doubt that the low recoil and negligible muzzle flip has to be beneficial as does the fatigue issue Mr guru refers to. SO on those points it could be argued that all things considered 24g are in fact BETTER.
balltrap
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36gram 6s Gamebore Buffalo's are the best shell i have ever shot they will smoke a clay edge on at 70 yards, i once shot 350 in one day and only lost 1 tooth and had to use only my left arm for only one day to drink tea ! after ( right handed ). A real mans shell :crazy: 24 grams are like a wet fart :yes: but i have to use them :stinker:
"Merely that they are no worse for being 4G light"
I really, really would like to see your empirical evidence for the above statement. You can't make a valid claim on any OT you may have shot because you don't use that load (28g) for OT. Further you would need to do a comprehensive double blind test to get the data you would require and that would involve shooting more than a couple of rounds of any trap discipline you care to name. To get truly representative test results you would have to shot many thousands of rounds of each loading BUT firstly you would have to shoot the same number of your usual shell and analyse first and second barrel hit rates and then you would have to reference them to your average round score verses the score you made on the actual round you scored them. Then and only after you had that data would the double blind test begin. For the test to be statistically significant you would need to shoot a considerable number of rounds over a year to get the data required to make a positive analysis of results because every time you shoot the conditions are subtlety different. It is no good at all thinking something you have to prove that otherwise you are going on placebo effect only!
I really, really would like to see your empirical evidence for the above statement. You can't make a valid claim on any OT you may have shot because you don't use that load (28g) for OT. Further you would need to do a comprehensive double blind test to get the data you would require and that would involve shooting more than a couple of rounds of any trap discipline you care to name. To get truly representative test results you would have to shot many thousands of rounds of each loading BUT firstly you would have to shoot the same number of your usual shell and analyse first and second barrel hit rates and then you would have to reference them to your average round score verses the score you made on the actual round you scored them. Then and only after you had that data would the double blind test begin. For the test to be statistically significant you would need to shoot a considerable number of rounds over a year to get the data required to make a positive analysis of results because every time you shoot the conditions are subtlety different. It is no good at all thinking something you have to prove that otherwise you are going on placebo effect only!
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sibaldib
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And this used to be such a friendly forum. :biggrin:
David Paul Gag
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