Cheats and cheating

[Sian]

A C in a sea of A's.

And that is more satisfying to me than any winnings or class or category win but I still see the need to have category and class so that people have something to aim for step by step.

 

[balltrap]

You won't get a rise out of me.  Just go see where that C is sitting in the list.

she did not bite !

 

[ips]

My C class score was 85/100 at Southdown this last Sunday ????

I can only dream of 85 at esp. That Imo is a worthy scratch score ?

 

[Sian]

I can only dream of 85 at esp. That Imo is a worthy scratch score ?

It was a good score and I won £100 but I didn't win what I wanted which was the GLN Ladies so the next best thing was where it was in the scheme of other scores.  Take the positive where I can, keeps me striving.

 

[DavidJ]

Whether the class system works or needs a rebuild the fact remains it rewards mediocrity and could likely feed a stagnant mindset. 

In the old days when reg shoots were few and far between your only real choice for a dose of comp fix was the various Sunday straw balers and charity shoots, these invariably only paid down 3 places and were absolutely packed.

I'm not sure its fair to say it rewards mediocrity, it rewards ability and not everyone, however much coaching is going to reach AAA. If classification was quicker to follow scores it would work much better. The handicap system in golf is a shining example of a system that keeps everyone involved and as with shooting 99.9% of players are always trying to shoot their best score. 

 

[westley]

I'm not sure its fair to say it rewards mediocrity, it rewards ability and not everyone, however much coaching is going to reach AAA. If classification was quicker to follow scores it would work much better. The handicap system in golf is a shining example of a system that keeps everyone involved and as with shooting 99.9% of players are always trying to shoot their best score. 

Beg to differ David, but I am not only blind I am constantly in the  A........A.........A..class.       I am deaf and just have to live with it ! 

 

[DavidJ]

You've lost me....

 

[chippy]

I'm not sure its fair to say it rewards mediocrity, it rewards ability and not everyone, however much coaching is going to reach AAA. If classification was quicker to follow scores it would work much better. The handicap system in golf is a shining example of a system that keeps everyone involved and as with shooting 99.9% of players are always trying to shoot their best score. 

Well said totally agree. And I just love winning £60 for shooting 85 when a load of AAs  shooting in the 90s win nothing. 

 

[Nimbusgb]

Let's take it to the ridiculous, we may as well scrap the paralympics, after all we wouldn't want to award recognition to anyone who can't match the worlds best.

Classifications don't reward mediocrity so much as encourage participation and support competitors in improving their own performance. 

 

[Skeetfreak]

Was going to stay out of this but been following it and the comment below was one which prompted me to join in - more on that later.

The actual class / category system is the best way to ENCOURAGE (note that word) shooters as they progress. They can see development in their ability over a time period nice and simple and they get to pick up several awards along the way in both

I). Rise in class

ii). Averages rise

iii). They may pick up a class win - be that medal or some prize money.

You try getting someone who joins the sport as a complete novice and tell them that all competitions are off a "scratch" basis and nothing but winning overall is recognised even at local club level and they will likely never make the transition to competition shooter. People are seeing this from a long time invested in the sport and having had their rewards in the lower classes / categories / club shoots and have "maybe" forgotten the satisfaction that this gave them. Getting that little medal for their first class win or something like, You would have to be pretty different kind of person to say that these NEVER gave you any satisfaction as an achievement and you ALWAYS compared yourself to high gun - more likely you did both hence the improvement to the point you can compete for high gun and "scratch" appeals so much now.

In order to appreciate where you are you need to know / remember where you came from.

That said the CPSA class system is clunky and too slow to react to fast improving shooters which then keeps them in the wrong classes for a pro-longed period of time - so YES it needs a re-vamp IMO to try and get classes being won with more realistic scores at shoots (as well as the debate surrounding difficultly in various sporting layouts). But that is a whole other topic which get debated on here multiple times a year.

Now onto the reason this post prompted me to finally join in....

Well said totally agree. And I just love winning £60 for shooting 85 when a load of AAs  shooting in the 90s win nothing. 

This is the bit where classes REWARD mediocrity rather than ENCOURAGE shooters - at least from a higher class shooters perspective and the reason why I think so many good shooters get frustrated and would prefer scratch in reality.

I was at an event earlier this year where I broke a 385/400 and finished overall runner up. Now bear in mind the entry cost was £160 for this shoot with £40 going into the prize kitty in class / event and then added money from the association in the same format (a set amount given in class per person entered).

With overall runner up I took home £45 for my overall ( Association added money in A class) and a total of £153 of the prize kitty which was paid in over my event classes (AA,AAA,AA,B) by the shooters.

B added money took - £56 (total £235)

B runner up added money took - £42 (total £114)

C winner added money took - £56 (total £266)

C runner up added money took - £42 (total £146)

Now here is rub I finished 10 targets clear of B class winner and 30 targets clear of the C class winner. I help the C class winner and he is a 15yr old Junior and a real nice lad who I shoot with regular and he is improving quickly and will not remain in that class for long. Even so we have spoken about the shoot and he will admit the situation is ridiculous that he can break 30 less targets than the overall runner up and win more money simply by the fact more people enter his class as opposed to mine. Suddenly I went from elated I had finished runner up to disappointed - yes a flaw in nearly every humans character I suspect that prize money will often overrule achievement when its used as a reward.

Now my solution may surprise a few of you......

None of us are ever going to get rich / probably never even break even with prize money over our shooting careers - even with a degree of success.

So....

Keep the classes / categories and award medals / trophies etc to ENCOURAGE shooters as they improve.

Get rid of prize money all together. It only causes issues - cheating, sandbagging, groans and mumbles, accusations etc.

In the case above I would have much preferred to have paid £40 less to enter and still finished runner up and left with that achievement and no prize money - rather than the sour feeling I got a week later when my "winners" cheque arrived.

A couple of years ago I kept a record of winnings vs COMPETITION entry fee - I was better off entering targets only by a resounding margin as even my wins rarely covered my entry fee. So now if I can "win" titles / classes by shooting targets only I do, as that is what drives me - winning events, shooting good scores and improving my averages. 

I only enter competition when I am forced too in order to "win" like the event above.

I realize I am very much in the minority and I know we hear the comment that "i like the winnings, it helps pay for my next shoot" - sorry but in my experience (shooting since 1994) cobblers! Do the maths long term entering the prize fund is like gambling for 95% of us - in the long run you lose. Plus harshly truth be told if your relying on the odd few pounds you may / may not win to fund the next shoot - you probably should not be shooting if money is that tight.

We also hear the comment that shooting for money makes you shoot better - sadly for some maybe - but not me that I am certain of. I shoot competition to win titles, I enter events to register my scores and improve my classes / averages. If I can shoot competition cheaper by not entering a optional prize pool and still win then I will do. I am happy seeing AAA1 or whatever next to my name along with T/O as I know I won, I was the best on the day and I shot well.

In another twist - it amazed me the other day to see in an article that there was an outrage that our Olympic medallists did not get given any money for winning medals by the UK government when other countries did.

I doubt for a second that is what motivated them - that they might get a "token" financial award if they won a medal - they did it for the TITLE and ACHIEVEMENT of that I am certain, and I am proud of them for that.

Sorry to have rambled on... will leave it there.

 

[Nimbusgb]

Well said that man!

 

[Chris Bubb]

I'm not sure its fair to say it rewards mediocrity, it rewards ability and not everyone, however much coaching is going to reach AAA. If classification was quicker to follow scores it would work much better. The handicap system in golf is a shining example of a system that keeps everyone involved and as with shooting 99.9% of players are always trying to shoot their best score. 

If the scores range from 60 up to 95, and somebody wins £60 by shooting 78, how can you  say that is not rewarding mediocrity.

 

[Sian]

If the scores range from 60 up to 95, and somebody wins £60 by shooting 78, how can you  say that is not rewarding mediocrity.

Respectfully, I believe that to be too simplistic a view.   Really there are several competitions going on within one competition - each class has it's own competition within the overall competition and if you involve categories, then there are even more mini competitions within the one competition.  The matter of how much money you win in each class is simply down to how many entrants you have in that class contributing to the pot.  It's swings and roundabouts because you can go to a shoot and have the majority in lower classes go birds only instead of comp and you can also have a AAA class that has only a few in it.  Reality is those AAA should be going for the High Gun in any event.

 

[Skeetfreak]

Really there are several competitions going on within one competition - each class has it's own competition within the overall competition.

The matter of how much money you win in each class is simply down to how many entrants you have in that class contributing to the pot.  

It's swings and roundabouts because you can go to a shoot and have the majority in lower classes go birds only instead of comp and you can also have a AAA class that has only a few in it.  Reality is those AAA should be going for the High Gun in any event.

Three really good points! - That are both the problem and the solution.

The first one is exactly how it should be - if you try to get rid of "Cheats and Cheating" by getting rid of classes all you do is drive the new competition shooters away as for the first X length of time they cannot possible compete. So i am 100% behind the class system - do i feel we need all the categories aswell? -  not really, as i believe if we get the class system right then you do not need the Disabled / Veterans / Juniors / Lady categories as they in a sport such as shooting should be able to compete in class.

The second point is the controversial one - as it really does depend on the side of the fence you are on. As a high classed shooter it "stings" if someone who has scored a serious number of targets less than you wins more money as there were more entrants. in C class than AA (more on that later). EQUALLY most lower classed shooters will not be happy about having a % of their prize fee put into a higher class / high gun pot to bulk it out.

Like it or not from where i sit by giving more money to shooters in lower classes than CH / RU is rewarding mediocrity (not a nice word) - but what it does do in real life is make some people think - what is the point in progressing as i will win less the better i get. This is where sandbagging etc comes from - peoples desperation to maybe win a larger prize pot easier. 

You never hear the really good shooters talk about things by how much they won - all you hear is i won X title or broke X number of targets.

Its only others who you will hear say "great day at ground X as i won £80 for winning my class. I will go there again" OR "i am going to go to ground X because they pay X amount down to X placing"

Lastly on the final point i HAVE to disagree - it is not swings and roundabouts as how the classification system is set up in any association / country there are ALWAYS fewer of the top level shooters for a number of reasons. 

% of shooters are allocated to classes (if memory serves me right its 5% = AAA, 10% = AA, 30% = A & B, 25% = C).

Now you take my county (Warks) there are currently 6 x AAA, 6 x AA, 28 x A, 36 x B, 39 x C in English sporting - it is physically impossible for the AAA guys to win any decent amount of prize money compared to the lower classes (unless they win a "set" high gun prize. If the high gun wins "class money" then they are at a disadvantage by the sheer fact the most they can win is 6 times X amount whereas a C class can win 39 times X amount. 

If people insist on wanting to shoot for prize money then there needs to be a better way found to allocate classes so that shooters are encouraged to get better as well as keeping new shooters encouraged as they progress. Without ending up with the few top guys thinking stuff this due to being penalized in the prize pot for getting good.

Like i said above i think cash prizes in our sport are not needed especially at local registered shoots where the field is spread all over the country. i can understand it more at larger shoots due to sponsored prizes and such like coupled with bigger entry in a single location / event but.....

Adding £5 to an entry for "competition" where there maybe only 6 in class (£30 max prize pot assuming all enter "comp") when the shoot costs say £35 T/O and £40 "competition" is pointless as even if you win the prize pot in class you cannot even win the birds only money back.

Shooters would actually be better off entering T/O which is sadly often the case in higher classes at local registered comps. 

Its one of the reasons i love the "any gauge / monthly targets" system in NSSA skeet - no prize money. no class wins awarded, You turn up to shoot any of the 5 gauges of your choice that day and shoot with a view to improving your class / average. I can do this for anywhere between £25-£30 per hundred and that includes referee fees, association fees all included. 

 

[chippy]

This only seems to affect AA and AAA shooters. In all my years of shooting I've never heard an A or B class  shooter moaning about a C class shooter winning money with a lower score than themselves. If I see a B or C class shooter winning good money I think to myself , good for them and I hope they do the same next week. 

 

[timps]

Maybe I am just odd but I just turn up and shoot. The class I end up in is the class it is but for some reason I like the class system. Never won high gun at registered sporting (came close once in B class which caused a few looks)  but have twice at sportrap but first time I went birds only doh!! . If money was my motivation I would have chosen a different sport as I have never won enough to break even. 

But what I will say if there wasn't a class system I probably wouldn't  have  stuck at it in the beginning. Wining C is achievable for a novice high gun is not, the small victories kept me going. 

If someone winning more than me bothers me I go birds only, if not I go comp, I don't care what others win just care about me. I just reside in A and figure that's about right I am A with flashes of genius in dispersed with mediocrity.   

If a C class beats me I think well done good luck see you in A soon as let's face it if he/she does it often then that's where the will end up.