Disturbing

[Les53]

Sorry if this is has been posted under another post or section, but I’ve just been viewing some interviews on You Tube regarding gun seizures! 
It appears that there is often no valid reason being given by police when guns are taken away and licenses revoked. 
Most of the cases seem to be in Devon and Cornwall, but in Dorset too it seems. 
The worrying thing is that no reason is given, no proof of any wrong doing and if you try to get your guns or ticket back via the courts, it can cost tens of thousands of pounds. 
We all suspect that something is badly wrong in some county police licensing departments, but to take it out on innocent shooters who have done nothing is plain wrong! 
Sometimes it seems that a person had been aggressive to another person, but no evidence is given to those having their guns removed. 
The police take the guns without needing to show proof and there is no appeal unless the shooter takes them to court. 
Ok if the police have a case, take the guns by all means, but the cost of getting them back should not be down to the shooter, most don’t have that sort of money. This system is totally wrong and it’s about time our governing bodies got together and did something. 
Rant over, I will get my coat and then write to my MP. 

 

[Jan Powell]

Sorry if this is has been posted under another post or section, but I’ve just been viewing some interviews on You Tube regarding gun seizures! 
It appears that there is often no valid reason being given by police when guns are taken away and licenses revoked. 
Most of the cases seem to be in Devon and Cornwall, but in Dorset too it seems. 
The worrying thing is that no reason is given, no proof of any wrong doing and if you try to get your guns or ticket back via the courts, it can cost tens of thousands of pounds. 
We all suspect that something is badly wrong in some county police licensing departments, but to take it out on innocent shooters who have done nothing is plain wrong! 
Sometimes it seems that a person had been aggressive to another person, but no evidence is given to those having their guns removed. 
The police take the guns without needing to show proof and there is no appeal unless the shooter takes them to court. 
Ok if the police have a case, take the guns by all means, but the cost of getting them back should not be down to the shooter, most don’t have that sort of money. This system is totally wrong and it’s about time our governing bodies got together and did something. 
Rant over, I will get my coat and then write to my MP. 

The police will always err on the side of safety and we’d rightly criticise them if they didn’t. That said, they’ll not remove guns from a certificate holder unless there’s a good reason to do so. Their actions have to be proportionate and reasonable in the circumstances. Most guns are seized following domestic incidents and/or the commission of crime. Often they’re returned once an investigation is complete. Your post seems to suggest the police are routinely seizing guns without good cause. That’s certainly not the case. Remember, just because a certificate holder avoids prosecution doesn’t mean the seizure of their guns at the time of an incident isn’t justified. Often it is.

As far as the role of governing bodies are concerned, you’ll find full CPSA membership comes with revocation insurance.

PS. Don’t believe every story you read online. It’s often a million miles from the truth.

 

[Les53]

The police will always err on the side of safety and we’d rightly criticise them if they didn’t. That said, they will not remove guns from a certificate holder unless their is a good reason to do so. Their actions have to be proportionate and reasonable in the circumstances. Most guns are seized following domestic incidents and/or the commission of crime. Often they’re returned once an investigation is complete. Your post seems to suggest the police are routinely seizing guns without good cause. That’s certainly not the case. Remember, just because a certificate holder avoids prosecution doesn’t mean the seizure of their guns at the time of an incident isn’t justified. Often it is.

As far as the role of governing bodies are concerned, you’ll find full CPSA membership comes with revocation insurance.

PS. Don’t believe every story you read online. It’s often a million miles from the truth.

Hi Jan, there are numerous cases online and on You Tube, not the crank stuff, I’m talking about legit. Admittedly most of it seems to stem from Devon and Cornwall and I know of a person that it happened to in Devon. 
It took him over a year and some legal fees to get his guns back. Basically the police had apparently acted on hearsay and no allegations were ever proven, there was basically no evidence. 
He eventually found out that his ex wife had it in for him. 
Yes I can see that the police need to act fast to remove a gun if there is a threat to safety. But once that is done there should be a proper investigation and in this and many other cases there was not, until lawyers got involved. This is often the case it seems. 
So whoever decides to remove guns and revoke and ticket becomes judge, jury and executioner! They don’t need to prove anything and unless you chose to contest it and appeal. That costs money. 
We can all see the failings in Devon and Cornwall of late and the initial response to that shooting was a total knee jerk. 
I’m still very concerned about how this is all going to pan out and I’m not the only one. 
Yes Jan I am an old pessimist

 

[Jan Powell]

Hi Jan, there are numerous cases online and on You Tube, not the crank stuff, I’m talking about legit. Admittedly most of it seems to stem from Devon and Cornwall and I know of a person that it happened to in Devon. 
It took him over a year and some legal fees to get his guns back. Basically the police had apparently acted on hearsay and no allegations were ever proven, there was basically no evidence. 
He eventually found out that his ex wife had it in for him. 
Yes I can see that the police need to act fast to remove a gun if there is a threat to safety. But once that is done there should be a proper investigation and in this and many other cases there was not, until lawyers got involved. This is often the case it seems. 
So whoever decides to remove guns and revoke and ticket becomes judge, jury and executioner! They don’t need to prove anything and unless you chose to contest it and appeal. That costs money. 
We can all see the failings in Devon and Cornwall of late and the initial response to that shooting was a total knee jerk. 
I’m still very concerned about how this is all going to pan out and I’m not the only one. 
Yes Jan I am an old pessimist

I hear what you're saying, but this doesn't negate the need for the police to intervene. 

Domestic incidents are difficult as frequently there's no crimes committed and it's often allegation vs denial with no corroborative evidence. Let's say for example, victim feels wronged and makes an allegation to the police that the suspect intends to cause harm with their guns. This may be incorrect but the police must act. They'll weigh up the validity of the report and will likely take the suspect's guns and certificate (thereby safeguarding others) whilst they make a decision as to their long term suitability. It may well be they're returned but unfortunately, for all sorts of reasons, this doesn't happen immediately.

Now the allegation may be absolute nonsense but the police must treat it as a genuine concern until such time as it's proved otherwise. There's no other way around this. I don't know the cases in Devon and Cornwall you refer to but I very much doubt there's not been an investigation. All police action, whatever it may be, has to be proportionate and reasonable given the circumstances. They're not judge, jury and executioner, they're taking action to minimise risk, as the public expect them to do. Certificates are only revoked where there's a serious risk and where the evidence justifies it.

 

[Les53]

I hear what you're saying, but this doesn't negate the need for the police to intervene. 

Domestic incidents are difficult as frequently there's no crimes committed and it's often allegation vs denial with no corroborative evidence. Let's say for example, victim feels wronged and makes an allegation to the police that the suspect intends to cause harm with their guns. This may be incorrect but the police must act. They'll weigh up the validity of the report and will likely take the suspect's guns and certificate (thereby safeguarding others) whilst they make a decision as to their long term suitability. It may well be they're returned but unfortunately, for all sorts of reasons, this doesn't happen immediately.

Now the allegation may be absolute nonsense but the police must treat it as a genuine concern until such time as it's proved otherwise. There's no other way around this. I don't know the cases in Devon and Cornwall you refer to but I very much doubt there's not been an investigation. All police action, whatever it may be, has to be proportionate and reasonable given the circumstances. They're not judge, jury and executioner, they're taking action to minimise risk, as the public expect them to do. Certificates are only revoked where there's a serious risk and where the evidence justifies it.

Yes agreed Jan, unfortunately in Devon and Cornwall it has not been done in the correct way. This has now been admitted by them and a big review is underway it seems. 
Unfortunately my county, Dorset , uses Devon and Cornwall licensing to process applications and renewals. 
It’s definitely a shambles and even my FEO, who I’ve known for many years, has confirmed. He actually doesn’t come under Devon and Cornwall, he’s Dorset, it’s a mess. Down this way we’ve had many issues, that have not hit the main press. Including an established gun club getting its home office approval removed. Bad move as the FEO and deputy chief constable are both club members! It went to court and Devon and Cornwall police lost, it cost them a small fortune. 
So I’m still pessimistic unfortunately Jan.

 

[philpot]

I did read about a couple of guys having their tickets and guns taken away from them in your region Les and from from I was able to see, again no proof given instead it was stated by the police officers that they had complaints given regarding how they conducted themselves with guns.  You would think in these times, proof would have to be provided but it seems not.  Always a tricky job for the police who get it in the neck whatever action is taken.

Each situation I have seen have been with live quarry shooters not clay shooters but that is just the few I am aware of.

Phil

 

[Les53]

I did read about a couple of guys having their tickets and guns taken away from them in your region Les and from from I was able to see, again no proof given instead it was stated by the police officers that they had complaints given regarding how they conducted themselves with guns.  You would think in these times, proof would have to be provided but it seems not.  Always a tricky job for the police who get it in the neck whatever action is taken.

Each situation I have seen have been with live quarry shooters not clay shooters but that is just the few I am aware of.

Phil

Phil it’s happened with all sorts of shooters. Until recently our regional issues didn’t make the headlines really. The Plymouth shootings have brought the whole thing into sharp focus! 
It’s showing up the fact that the system at present is open to misinterpretation by individual police forces or possibly even certain individuals! 
 

 

[philpot]

The Plymouth tragedy has as you say caused a mass of police action which is understandable although of course targeting legitimate ticket holders is not the way to do it in my humble opinion although it provides the police spokesman with a loud and clear fact that 500 / 1000 / 1500 etc etc guns have been removed from the streets even though they were NOT street guns.  I am sure you are right Les in the fact that clay shooters have been targeted as well, I just have not seen that.

The distress caused to my close friend a couple of weeks ago by having his guns and tickets taken away has been quite dramatic making him feel like a criminal and I am certain that most of the law abiding gun owners will feel the same way as my friend feels. We have about 10,000 acres of rough / vermin shooting using air rifles / fac air rifles / rimfire & shotguns to carry out our vermin control which in the case of my friend now will be sub 12 air rifle only.

 

[Les53]

The Plymouth tragedy has as you say caused a mass of police action which is understandable although of course targeting legitimate ticket holders is not the way to do it in my humble opinion although it provides the police spokesman with a loud and clear fact that 500 / 1000 / 1500 etc etc guns have been removed from the streets even though they were NOT street guns.  I am sure you are right Les in the fact that clay shooters have been targeted as well, I just have not seen that.

The distress caused to my close friend a couple of weeks ago by having his guns and tickets taken away has been quite dramatic making him feel like a criminal and I am certain that most of the law abiding gun owners will feel the same way as my friend feels. We have about 10,000 acres of rough / vermin shooting using air rifles / fac air rifles / rimfire & shotguns to carry out our vermin control which in the case of my friend now will be sub 12 air rifle only.

A right of appeal is there for everyone, however it takes time and money which few can afford. 
Devon and Cornwall have proved that the system at present is not fit for purpose. 
Some FEO’s feel the same way. Home office guidelines to police forces are unfortunately open to local interpretation or misinterpretation. 
This is going to take years to sort out , but it’s worrying how many innocent shooters might have guns removed or licenses revoked unfairly before any changes are made. 
A lot of the Cullen reports recommendations, after Dunblane, were not implemented, other than a ban on most handguns. Proper and regular training of FEO’s was recommended, but apparently police forces don’t always do it. Certainly Devon and Cornwall have admitted it. 
The local coppers on the beat do what’s best and remove guns from what could be a dangerous person, that’s fine. 
It’s what happens after that which is the issue.

 

[philpot]

I have just spoken to my friend who has in turn been on to his solicitor ( a relative ) and the advice was to let it drop as the cost would be about £5-6k as the police will delay and delay and delay creating costs all the time. My friend is letting it go and stick with sub 12 air rifle, forget the rimfire, fac air and shotgun.  There seems to be confusion regarding when someone can reapply for licenses again but you have to wonder if it is even worthwhile.

Phil

 

[Les53]

I have just spoken to my friend who has in turn been on to his solicitor ( a relative ) and the advice was to let it drop as the cost would be about £5-6k as the police will delay and delay and delay creating costs all the time. My friend is letting it go and stick with sub 12 air rifle, forget the rimfire, fac air and shotgun.  There seems to be confusion regarding when someone can reapply for licenses again but you have to wonder if it is even worthwhile.

Phil

This is the same sort of scenario that was gone into in some of the videos I’ve watched and also some articles I’ve read. 
This re application thing is a nonsense too, no set time and if someone is not fit to own a gun today, why would they be possibly fit at some future point in time and who would decide? 
It’s a bloody mess and it needs sorting out properly. Every few years it seems like some new guideline or rule gets tacked on by whoever. 
It needs a total overhaul from the floor up and it needs proper input from experts, which should include representatives from the various shooting organisations. 

I’m not sure if this is correct, but I was told yesterday that in Scotland firearms licensing is centralised and not down to individual police areas. If that is the case then I wonder how successful it is? 
Do we have any Scottish shooters on here that could enlighten us I wonder? 

 

[ColinD]

I have just spoken to my friend who has in turn been on to his solicitor ( a relative ) and the advice was to let it drop as the cost would be about £5-6k as the police will delay and delay and delay creating costs all the time. My friend is letting it go and stick with sub 12 air rifle, forget the rimfire, fac air and shotgun.  There seems to be confusion regarding when someone can reapply for licenses again but you have to wonder if it is even worthwhile.

Phil

So his licence was revoked and they didn't even tell him why, thought you were innocent until proven guilty. They must have give a reason for them taking his guns surely. I'm not asking what, only if they gave him a reason

 

[philpot]

So his licence was revoked and they didn't even tell him why, thought you were innocent until proven guilty. They must have give a reason for them taking his guns surely. I'm not asking what, only if they gave him a reason

Yes they have given two reasons of which neither makes sense and will be followed up so forgive me for not listing it here at the moment but having seen the reasons, I am completely lost by the outcome. 

 

[Les53]

Yes they have given two reasons of which neither makes sense and will be followed up so forgive me for not listing it here at the moment but having seen the reasons, I am completely lost by the outcome. 

Sounds like a common issue.

 

[ColinD]

Person I shoot with works with the NGO and a gamekeeper was renewing his FAC/SGC, it took for ever and they issued him a temp' one. Which duly ran out and then told him he would have to store his guns with a RFD until he got his certs'. How's he supposed to do his job without what amounts to his tools .

They just seem to do what ever they like

 

[Mike]

They just seem to do what ever they like

Because they can and they do and get away with it.

I've never been a fan of the Police, nothing personal Jan.

 

[ColinD]

Because they can and they do and get away with it.

I've never been a fan of the Police, nothing personal Jan.

Strange but their always the first we call when something happens that threatens us. Whether we like them or not  

 

[Mike]

Strange but their always the first we call when something happens that threatens us. Whether we like them or not  

You'll be very lucky if something happens and you are helped out, have you seen how crime's solved is down?

 

[ColinD]

While I'm not in the Police I know someone who is, you'd be very surprised how under staffed and under founded they are, and their not alone in the public sector with that. What they have to do and put up with daily, I was amazed about.

Their priorities with what they attend to first is set by those above, the same ones in charge of the funding. Government say a lot of things to the public about how they are going to cure this that and the other but seldom come up the the means to do it.

Not just the present Government either