Failed Proof: Came off when firing

[PhilFedUp]

My much used 12 bore Silver Pigeon tried to dismantle itself. See pic. Barrels sliding out of the monobloc. GMK told me they could fix it back in Italy, taking about 9 months and costing something like £700 or so. Despite pleading, and it's clearly a manufacturing fault, they offered no goodwill. My local gunsmith proposed an alternative approach which involved dismantling, cleaning and use of a suitable high temperature adhesive to fix it, and then sending it for reproof, and the cost would be around 1/2 of GMK's. I agreed. The repair was done, the gunsmith tested it quite extensively and it didn't fall apart, so off it went to proof. It's come back. That's the good news. The bad news? Red sticker; it's failed. The reason is 'Came off when firing' but no further explanation. Anyone know what that means? It's come back complete, hasn't blown apart, but I'm intrigued. I haven't seen it yet. Fortunately, I have others, but this was my first, and I was attached to it.
Help.

 

[chippy]

They are normally silver soldered or brazed. Never heard of adhesive being used.

 

[Freddypip]

Best to wait until you see it. It might be obvious then. Please post some photos when you get it back.

 

[bordergun]

Chippy Usually the way to solve that problem is to rebuild the barrel assembly from scratch. The tubes are hard silver soldered in. However, I have seen some older guns that are repaired with an "engineering adhesive" that I believe Loctite make? I believe this is to prevent overheating and the risk separating the ribs? But in the case of PhilsFedups gun, a silver pigeon, I wouldn't think a repair with hard silver solder would effect anything? So I don't really know why his gunsmith suggested that? Perhaps he would be able to explain Phil?

 

[Bavarian]

I think to re- solder the barrels with silver solder (needs quite high temperatures) the whole assembly has to be torn apart, grinded and cleaned completely and also being re-blued afterwards.
That may cause the high costs. Perhaps a failure in the solderig process has happendend or the tolerances between the receiver and the monobloc are wrong that the solder has not enough space to do it´s job. Or there also might be to much space inbetween. Hard to say afterwards and from far away if not knowing details about the right tolerances and the materials used.
"High temperature" - adhesive could be anything.
If you want to have your gun back to work properly you have to have it fixed the right way with all the effort it takes to do so, I´m afarid.

 

[Freddypip]

That's a really good point - if the parts were out of tolerance - even a very small bit - will a fix work at all.

 

[FESkent]

The rib is normally soft soldered on which melts at a lot lower temperature than the hard solder (silver solder) hence the £700 to repair as quite a lot of work, Stripping, cleaning, hard soldering, regulating the barrels, soldering the rib back on, re bluing, reproofing. but would come back like new.

 

[PhilFedUp]

They are normally silver soldered or brazed. Never heard of adhesive being used.

You're absolutely right; they're silver soldered when new, and that ought to last a lifetime. It'll never get to silver solder temperature through use. The adhesive trick was a suggestion by the gunsmith to avoid the lot falling apart due to excess heat, as it would have been 'ribs off' and needing re-blueing, so saving the extra cost. On balance, maybe the extra cost would have been worth it! I will attach files when I see it, although the phone report is that if looks fine. Let's wait and see what the proof house say. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Given that it has to be a manufacturing fault despite the age, it's annoying that Beretta wouldn't do the decent thing in the first place.

 

[Big G]

If it’s a “well used” gun I doubt if it is worth spending £700 for a repair job, think I would be looking for a “little used” 2nd hand gun.

 

[cambman]

You might want to contract Rich Cole at Coles Gunsmithing in Florida. He started with Beretta over 40 years ago and is considered one of the best gunsmiths in the US. Their work is second to done and they guarantee their work.

 

[PhilFedUp]

If it’s a “well used” gun I doubt if it is worth spending £700 for a repair job, think I would be looking for a “little used” 2nd hand gun.

Thanks. That's precisely why I opted for the hopefully lower cost option. It's had many thousands of shells through it in around 20 years. Even so, you wouldn't think it would slide apart like a trombone, would you?

Discussion with the gunsmith went something like this:
How much is it worth in this condition? Answer: Not much. The stock and fore-end would might sell.
If it was in once piece and not falling to bits, how much would it be worth? Answer: Around £1,000.
If it was fixed and re-proofed, presumably steel proof, how much would it be worth? Answer: Around £1,100-£1,200.
So, the option of spending £700 or more seemed of limited value under the circumstances, although I'd have ended up with a working shotgun for £700, and I expect I'd be able to find a used one for round about the same but not knowing its history.

Consequently, gambling with adhesive at considerably less cost seemed like a good idea at the time, but now, I'm not so sure! I suspect that I'll be creating space in my cabinet.

 

[Big G]

Thanks. That's precisely why I opted for the hopefully lower cost option. It's had many thousands of shells through it in around 20 years. Even so, you wouldn't think it would slide apart like a trombone, would you?

Discussion with the gunsmith went something like this:
How much is it worth in this condition? Answer: Not much. The stock and fore-end would might sell.
If it was in once piece and not falling to bits, how much would it be worth? Answer: Around £1,000.
If it was fixed and re-proofed, presumably steel proof, how much would it be worth? Answer: Around £1,100-£1,200.
So, the option of spending £700 or more seemed of limited value under the circumstances, although I'd have ended up with a working shotgun for £700, and I expect I'd be able to find a used one for round about the same but not knowing its history.

Consequently, gambling with adhesive at considerably less cost seemed like a good idea at the time, but now, I'm not so sure! I suspect that I'll be creating space in my cabinet.

Hope you find a decent replacement.

 

[bordergun]

Philfedup Over here in the US some gunsmiths use Loctite retaining compound 620. Apparently they say it works better than silver solder and is used with success on expensive guns. I hope this link works:-

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/resoldering-momoblock-to-u-o-shotgun-barrels-advice-511808/

If not please go to www.Shotgunworld.com and the post is "Resoldering monoblock to U/O shotgun barrels advice.

Apparently Loctite make an even stronger adhesive that the 620 and the late shotgun restorer and Builder Dennis DeVault used it all the time . No reproof necessary from what I am told.

If you have problems please contact me here:- www.peteblakeley.com I will help if I can.

 

[FESkent]

Thanks. That's precisely why I opted for the hopefully lower cost option. It's had many thousands of shells through it in around 20 years. Even so, you wouldn't think it would slide apart like a trombone, would you?

Discussion with the gunsmith went something like this:
How much is it worth in this condition? Answer: Not much. The stock and fore-end would might sell.
If it was in once piece and not falling to bits, how much would it be worth? Answer: Around £1,000.
If it was fixed and re-proofed, presumably steel proof, how much would it be worth? Answer: Around £1,100-£1,200.
So, the option of spending £700 or more seemed of limited value under the circumstances, although I'd have ended up with a working shotgun for £700, and I expect I'd be able to find a used one for round about the same but not knowing its history.

Consequently, gambling with adhesive at considerably less cost seemed like a good idea at the time, but now, I'm not so sure! I suspect that I'll be creating space in my cabinet.

Do you know what adhesive the gunsmith used?

 

[Luke_(NL)]

The image struck me as familiar. Sorry to hear the cheaper option failed on proof. Curious to see what occurred, and I hope the gunsmith will be forthcoming with you: paying for a solution that doesn't hold up to proofing would bother me. I am somewhat intrigued by the proofing requirements: When do they apply and when not? Having any work done on barrels / monobloc after "spontaneous dissasembly" surely would require proofing, yes? Despite of the adhesive or fixing method used?

 

[bordergun]

I believe Beretta has a one year warranty on their guns.

REPROOF. After the original proofing, any gun that is subjected to alteration in any way needs to be reproofed. "Alteration in any way" covers a broad spectrum. Some of the reasons include :-
1. Any enlargement of the original bore, lengthening of the chamber to accept heavier shells, fitting of screw in chokes, or any repairs to the barrels that would require heat buildup, welding or brazing.
2. Any repairs to cracks, dents, bulges or pitting.
3. Any gun which was to be used for a purpose other than that which it had been originally intended, for example, conversion from black to nitro powder.

As I said in the earlier post, I'm not 100% sure in this case that reproofing is necessary and I will find out by calling DeVault Industries. From my enquiries here in the US the Loctite 620 is used in such circumstances with great success and there is an even stronger (648 I believe) that may give better results when there are larger tolerances to deal with.

Although not a common problem "monobloc separation" is caused by continual flexing of the two different metals on older guns and for that reason a "soft" assembly joint is used. I have seen repairs made on older guns with modern adhesives that have last for a very long time, many years.

 

[Luke_(NL)]

@bordergun - thanks, that's informative.
I'm not enough of a chemist / metallurgist to judge on whether Loctite 620/638 would be stronger than soldering, but I suppose there is a reason for soldering / welding being the industry standard (although nowadays I would fear cost may be a factor too). I would hope any repairs to separated barrels would also require reproofing as the consequences of a bad fix could well be dangerous.

As for the Beretta warranty, their website states that products are warranted to be free from defects and is said to cover (following registration) "an additional year compared to the legal warranty". Now the legal warranty will differ per jurisdiction, but in most EU countries it would tie in with a reasonable expectation of a defect-free lifespan of the product, taking devaluation from use into account when assessing the duty of repair or replacement. I believe that to have been surpassed thirty years down the line, but if anyone can prove otherwise in court I would hire them.

 

[Bavarian]

I have used Loctite 648 which is the strongest adhesive out of this range. The Shear strength is up to 31N/mm² when used steel to steel
with clean surfaces and the right width of the gap inbetween. It works well on certain parts like bolts, screws or gearwheels dependig on the size
of the parts and the acting forces.
https://datasheets.tdx.henkel.com/LOCTITE-648-en_GL.pdf

A high quality silver solder has almost 10 times of shear strength (250-300 N/mm²), for example Felder Ag49
https://www.felder.de/files/felder/pdf/DE_34-L-Ag49.pdf

So Loctite 620/648 may work on some applications, but the proper solution is resoldering in my opinion. I don´t know what will happen if the old solder
is not grinded away properly and you don´t have clean steel surfaces and use the glue.
Those datasheets are always based on the best possible processing and perfect clean surfaces.

 

[Freddypip]

Whilst the Consumer Protection Act 1987 does not cover the product itself (being concerned with injury or damage caused by it) it has a long-stop of 10 years. the CPA is based on a European Directive so it will be the same Europe wide. I know that's not relevant to the type of repair but it impacts on what is considered a 'lifetime' guarantee.

 

[SBL]

I used to work for Loctite. They make some great products but I certainly wouldn’t try gluing a gun back together.