AW13
Well-known member
Westley - think you might have a very firm opinion then on adj combs!
After reading the above I am also glad I have fixed chokes!
After reading the above I am also glad I have fixed chokes!
Gun Fit - Chicken and the Egg
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Rosso
Well-known member
Rosso
Well-known member
I do not have a poor opinion of adjustable combs, just their misuse, which often includes people who have shot for some time. If I am Instructing someone and their gunfit is poor, I much prefer the 'blue Peter' method of sticking bits on until the required fit is achieved. I would then advise that person to shoot the gun for a while until it is decided that 'we' have it right and then make the job more permanent. As for multi chokes, no problem there either, unless the user is constantly switching chokes between stands. They then, blame their choice of choke and NOT their inability for their misses. I blame my misses for my inability, but that is only because she prevents me from shooting as often as I would like !
Rosso
Well-known member
Your absolutely right.
It's a bit like buying a car. You want all the goodies.
But rarely use them.
I have just raised my comb a bit. But prior to that it was never adjusted.
My reason for this I felt the gun was difficult to get into.
I could not get it to my face quickly on close fast targets.
ips
Well-known member
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- Jul 19, 2012
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I had adj comb on a 682X trap it was up and down every week I just could not settle then in a moment of madness I decided stuff the poi malarkey and just set it so that it was comfortable to mount. It was on its very very highest setting in fact it was over and therefore obviously it was shooting very very high (one assumes as I did not pattern it) but it was oh so comfortable. First trip out with it 100 x 294 this continued for many months with regular 99 x 294 kind of scores and got me into AA.
The point I am making is that since then I have concluded that comfort of mount "may" be more important than any "percieved" poi/poa, and that you will adapt to any comb height either straight away (as the above example) or given time. Furthermore it is my opinion that way too much time and thought "can" be given to the poi/poa by way of miniscule adjustment to comb rather than just shoot the target.
Is it just me or is the amount of rib one sees during the mount not always the amount of rib seen after the shot / in other words does the cheek pressure remain the same throughout the swing and taking the shot ? if it does not then a mm here or there on the comb could be considered (to a degree) to be inconsequential ???
The point I am making is that since then I have concluded that comfort of mount "may" be more important than any "percieved" poi/poa, and that you will adapt to any comb height either straight away (as the above example) or given time. Furthermore it is my opinion that way too much time and thought "can" be given to the poi/poa by way of miniscule adjustment to comb rather than just shoot the target.
Is it just me or is the amount of rib one sees during the mount not always the amount of rib seen after the shot / in other words does the cheek pressure remain the same throughout the swing and taking the shot ? if it does not then a mm here or there on the comb could be considered (to a degree) to be inconsequential ???
Rosso
Well-known member
I agree. I raised my comb a bit for a quicker more comfy mount.
I mainly shoot sporting gun slightly down just out of shoulder.
Just want it in my face a bit quicker.
Will shoot it Sunday and see what happens.
Re the rib.
Sometimes I see it sometimes I don't. When it hits my face I pull the trigger maybe unmount slightly then go for the report bird.
The gun becomes irrelevant after the shot.
If I'm deliberate I see it all the time I suppose that's what DTL is.
On real quick close stuff I don't as there is no time.
Use a lot of different styles, mix and match them for different target types.
My mate rifles everything out. With good affect. He shoots gun up at everything.
So he must see rib all the time.
I mainly shoot sporting gun slightly down just out of shoulder.
Just want it in my face a bit quicker.
Will shoot it Sunday and see what happens.
Re the rib.
Sometimes I see it sometimes I don't. When it hits my face I pull the trigger maybe unmount slightly then go for the report bird.
The gun becomes irrelevant after the shot.
If I'm deliberate I see it all the time I suppose that's what DTL is.
On real quick close stuff I don't as there is no time.
Use a lot of different styles, mix and match them for different target types.
My mate rifles everything out. With good affect. He shoots gun up at everything.
So he must see rib all the time.
ips
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Of course I should have made it clear I am talking trap so pre mounted.
After my recent sporting shoot (or rather attempt) I was genuinely impressed at the many different targets and presumably methods to shoot them that you lot encounter. Seems to me that it would be very hard to replicate what you did one week to another or even target to target so presumably its much more a chuck it up and shoot the thing than trap therefore I can understand why some advocate no bead.
After my recent sporting shoot (or rather attempt) I was genuinely impressed at the many different targets and presumably methods to shoot them that you lot encounter. Seems to me that it would be very hard to replicate what you did one week to another or even target to target so presumably its much more a chuck it up and shoot the thing than trap therefore I can understand why some advocate no bead.
Well, this thread seems to ramble on, so I will offer this little nugget for you to read and later debate.
The author Don Currie is an advocate of Robert Churchill's instinctive shooting method.
This article has received high praise in it's country of origin ( USA) .
I offer it for your consideration.
Remember the printed word is not necessarily the Gospel !
Fasten your seatbelt. The following rules of gun mount and movement may, on the surface, seem foreign, perhaps even radical. But so is breaking targets without any conscious perception of lead. If you have not yet accepted the fact that the path to consistency in sporting clays lies in keeping your eye on the target and letting your subconscious apply lead, then the following nuggets may be of little use to you.
If however, you have drunk the Churchill cool-aid then you understand that instinctive shotgunning is a sport of hand-eye- coordination and that sharp visual focus on the target will guide your hands and gun to break the target. If you are a shotgunner that could use a little help with your mount and movement to the target, these radical rules may be the final missing pieces of the puzzle. Before we dive into The Four Radical Rules of MOVEMENT, let’s understand the purpose of the gun mount.
Contrary to popular belief, the purpose of a good gun mount is NOT to get the gun to the shoulder. The purpose of a good gun mount is to:
… Naturally align the shotgun barrel with your dominant eye prior to executing the shot, and
… Allow your dominant eye to acquire and maintain visual focus on the target through the break point.
With these essential truths as a backdrop, The 4 Radical Rules of Movement may not seem as radical:
Rule #1 - Mount to the Cheek, not the shoulder. If your gun fits, and your mount is consistent, your dominant eye will properly align over the center of the rib each time the comb of the stock makes contact with the cheek. As a result, the gun will shoot where you are looking. If you mount your gun to your shoulder first, instead of bringing the gun all the way to the cheek, you now have to bring your head down to the gun before executing the shot. Shooters that mount to the shoulder and then bring their heads down to the comb put themselves at a significant disadvantage.
I often hear shooters attribute a miss to the fact that they didn’t have their head on the gun. The reality is that shooters don’t miss because they fail to bring their head down to the gun; they miss because they fail to bring the gun to the cheek. In mounting to the shoulder first, and lowering the head to the comb, the shooter will tend to rollover the stock placing the dominant eye outside the centerline of the rib. By mounting to the shoulder, the shooter completely interrupts the flow of the mount and limits the ability of the hands and arms to move the gun to the target.
Mounting to the shoulder first will tend to breed inconsistency simply because the butt of the stock will come to rest at a variety of locations on the shoulder depending on the elevation and flight line of the target. This often results in a different cheek-stock weld and eye-barrel alignment each time the shooter moves and mounts to a target.
If you mount to the cheek, allowing the shoulder to naturally come forward to meet the butt of the gun, you’ll be assured of proper eye-barrel alignment across the broad spectrum of sporting clays targets. For trap- like targets, when pre-mounting your gun is preferable, bring the gun to your cheek first, and then slide it back into your shoulder before calling for the target. This way, when you execute the shot, you know that you have maintained proper eye-barrel alignment.
Rule #2 - The weight of the gun should rest in the hands. As with most hand-eye coordination sports, the eyes should lead the hands. If all the weight of the gun is in the hands, the shotgun is then very responsive to the corrections made by the small muscles of the hands and arms in reaction to impulses sent by the brain. I often see shooters over-using their trigger-hand, overpowering the lead or pointing hand causing the barrel to dip as the shooter inserts the gun onto the target line. Both hands should control the weight of the gun and the gun movement equally. One hand should not overpower the other. If the gun is “nested” or rested in the shoulder, gun movement is more dependant on the less responsive large muscles of the body. When engaging trap-like targets with very little lateral movement, nesting the butt of the gun in the shoulder for accuracy and stability is an advantage but shifting most of the weight to the hands instead of the shoulder will help you respond more instinctively to these types of targets.
Rule #3 - Movement of the gun must be synchronized with the target. Synchronizing the movement of the gun barrel with the target allows the eye to focus clearly on the target just prior to and through the breakpoint. It is this synchronized movement with the target that allows you to apply sharp visual focus. When the gun is moving erratically or at a faster speed than the target, the movement of the gun barrel tends to pull the eye off of the target by distracting visual focus. I see many D and C Class shooters that swing through almost ever y target. While swing- through works well on targets with a consistent target line, it often fails with more technical or transitioning targets. Movement that is synchronized with the target prior to and through the breakpoint will greatly enhance visual focus and enable your eye to pick-up the nuances of transitioning targets.
Rule #4 - The longer “the ride”, the more likely the miss. The moment that the comb of the stock reaches your cheek, the quality of the visual information reaching your brain begins to degrade. The longer the stock is at your cheek, the more likely it is that you will miss the target. The bottom line is, you will never be able to see a target as well with the gun in your cheek because your vision is partially occluded by the gun barrel. I call this interval between the time the stock reaches your cheek and the time you pull the trigger “the occlusion interval”. The longer the occlusion interval, the more likely it is that something is going to go wrong. The longer the occlusion interval on a given target, the more likely it is that your visual focus will diffuse and you will become consciously aware of the barrel. A shot should be executed such that three key events occur in very rapid succession: 1) your visual focus on the target reaches a crescendo, 2) the gun makes contact with the cheek and 3) the trigger is activated. Or, as Gary Greenway, a mentor of mine and former NSCA Chief Instructor likes to say, “Lock on, Lock up and Deliver”: Visually “Lock-on” to the target, “Lock-up” the comb into the cheek and “Deliver” the shot. Your mount and movement to the target should be timed such that you can “Lock-on, Lock-up and Deliver” at the preplanned breakpoint. The trigger event, the moment you pull the trigger, is the moment at which your focus on the target reaches a crescendo and the comb of the stock meets the cheek.
Perfecting your gun mount and movement will be the most time-consuming of any aspect of your game. Naturally, it is also the aspect for which many shooters look for shortcuts. But there aren’t any shortcuts. I have spent countless hours on the skeet field on stations 3, 4 and 5 working on my mount… and it still needs work.
Let the weight of the gun rest in your hands and synchronize your gun movement with the target. Mount to the cheek for better eye-barrel alignment and pull the trigger the moment the comb reaches your cheek and you achieve sharp visual focus on the target.
Get radical and get more Xs on the scorecard.
AbouttheAuthor
The author Don Currie is an advocate of Robert Churchill's instinctive shooting method.
This article has received high praise in it's country of origin ( USA) .
I offer it for your consideration.
Remember the printed word is not necessarily the Gospel !
Fasten your seatbelt. The following rules of gun mount and movement may, on the surface, seem foreign, perhaps even radical. But so is breaking targets without any conscious perception of lead. If you have not yet accepted the fact that the path to consistency in sporting clays lies in keeping your eye on the target and letting your subconscious apply lead, then the following nuggets may be of little use to you.
If however, you have drunk the Churchill cool-aid then you understand that instinctive shotgunning is a sport of hand-eye- coordination and that sharp visual focus on the target will guide your hands and gun to break the target. If you are a shotgunner that could use a little help with your mount and movement to the target, these radical rules may be the final missing pieces of the puzzle. Before we dive into The Four Radical Rules of MOVEMENT, let’s understand the purpose of the gun mount.
Contrary to popular belief, the purpose of a good gun mount is NOT to get the gun to the shoulder. The purpose of a good gun mount is to:
… Naturally align the shotgun barrel with your dominant eye prior to executing the shot, and
… Allow your dominant eye to acquire and maintain visual focus on the target through the break point.
With these essential truths as a backdrop, The 4 Radical Rules of Movement may not seem as radical:
Rule #1 - Mount to the Cheek, not the shoulder. If your gun fits, and your mount is consistent, your dominant eye will properly align over the center of the rib each time the comb of the stock makes contact with the cheek. As a result, the gun will shoot where you are looking. If you mount your gun to your shoulder first, instead of bringing the gun all the way to the cheek, you now have to bring your head down to the gun before executing the shot. Shooters that mount to the shoulder and then bring their heads down to the comb put themselves at a significant disadvantage.
I often hear shooters attribute a miss to the fact that they didn’t have their head on the gun. The reality is that shooters don’t miss because they fail to bring their head down to the gun; they miss because they fail to bring the gun to the cheek. In mounting to the shoulder first, and lowering the head to the comb, the shooter will tend to rollover the stock placing the dominant eye outside the centerline of the rib. By mounting to the shoulder, the shooter completely interrupts the flow of the mount and limits the ability of the hands and arms to move the gun to the target.
Mounting to the shoulder first will tend to breed inconsistency simply because the butt of the stock will come to rest at a variety of locations on the shoulder depending on the elevation and flight line of the target. This often results in a different cheek-stock weld and eye-barrel alignment each time the shooter moves and mounts to a target.
If you mount to the cheek, allowing the shoulder to naturally come forward to meet the butt of the gun, you’ll be assured of proper eye-barrel alignment across the broad spectrum of sporting clays targets. For trap- like targets, when pre-mounting your gun is preferable, bring the gun to your cheek first, and then slide it back into your shoulder before calling for the target. This way, when you execute the shot, you know that you have maintained proper eye-barrel alignment.
Rule #2 - The weight of the gun should rest in the hands. As with most hand-eye coordination sports, the eyes should lead the hands. If all the weight of the gun is in the hands, the shotgun is then very responsive to the corrections made by the small muscles of the hands and arms in reaction to impulses sent by the brain. I often see shooters over-using their trigger-hand, overpowering the lead or pointing hand causing the barrel to dip as the shooter inserts the gun onto the target line. Both hands should control the weight of the gun and the gun movement equally. One hand should not overpower the other. If the gun is “nested” or rested in the shoulder, gun movement is more dependant on the less responsive large muscles of the body. When engaging trap-like targets with very little lateral movement, nesting the butt of the gun in the shoulder for accuracy and stability is an advantage but shifting most of the weight to the hands instead of the shoulder will help you respond more instinctively to these types of targets.
Rule #3 - Movement of the gun must be synchronized with the target. Synchronizing the movement of the gun barrel with the target allows the eye to focus clearly on the target just prior to and through the breakpoint. It is this synchronized movement with the target that allows you to apply sharp visual focus. When the gun is moving erratically or at a faster speed than the target, the movement of the gun barrel tends to pull the eye off of the target by distracting visual focus. I see many D and C Class shooters that swing through almost ever y target. While swing- through works well on targets with a consistent target line, it often fails with more technical or transitioning targets. Movement that is synchronized with the target prior to and through the breakpoint will greatly enhance visual focus and enable your eye to pick-up the nuances of transitioning targets.
Rule #4 - The longer “the ride”, the more likely the miss. The moment that the comb of the stock reaches your cheek, the quality of the visual information reaching your brain begins to degrade. The longer the stock is at your cheek, the more likely it is that you will miss the target. The bottom line is, you will never be able to see a target as well with the gun in your cheek because your vision is partially occluded by the gun barrel. I call this interval between the time the stock reaches your cheek and the time you pull the trigger “the occlusion interval”. The longer the occlusion interval, the more likely it is that something is going to go wrong. The longer the occlusion interval on a given target, the more likely it is that your visual focus will diffuse and you will become consciously aware of the barrel. A shot should be executed such that three key events occur in very rapid succession: 1) your visual focus on the target reaches a crescendo, 2) the gun makes contact with the cheek and 3) the trigger is activated. Or, as Gary Greenway, a mentor of mine and former NSCA Chief Instructor likes to say, “Lock on, Lock up and Deliver”: Visually “Lock-on” to the target, “Lock-up” the comb into the cheek and “Deliver” the shot. Your mount and movement to the target should be timed such that you can “Lock-on, Lock-up and Deliver” at the preplanned breakpoint. The trigger event, the moment you pull the trigger, is the moment at which your focus on the target reaches a crescendo and the comb of the stock meets the cheek.
Perfecting your gun mount and movement will be the most time-consuming of any aspect of your game. Naturally, it is also the aspect for which many shooters look for shortcuts. But there aren’t any shortcuts. I have spent countless hours on the skeet field on stations 3, 4 and 5 working on my mount… and it still needs work.
Let the weight of the gun rest in your hands and synchronize your gun movement with the target. Mount to the cheek for better eye-barrel alignment and pull the trigger the moment the comb reaches your cheek and you achieve sharp visual focus on the target.
Get radical and get more Xs on the scorecard.
AbouttheAuthor
Will Hewland
Well-known member
It was bollox in the first two lines. Got a bit better after that but this is not a sporting shooters gospel IMO.
Nice to hear others comments , this what Americans pay hundreds of dollars for . I wish that I never missed as soon as the stock touched my cheek !
I must learn to remember that if it doesn't look right it probably is right so pull the trigger anyway!
I must learn to remember that if it doesn't look right it probably is right so pull the trigger anyway!
N
no.1topdog
Guest
I had no idea shooting was so complex! I suppose explaining what you do by the written word is going to be a long winded affair, but a 1 to 1 lesson with a coach would get this across in more direct ways in a shorter time, and then reinforce the instructions to correct errors.
I must have comitted all that (from Salopian's post) into my sub-conscious because if I had to think about all that when shooting, I'd never get a shot off! That is not an attempt at being big headed or saying I know it all, but I really don't think of much except the target and causing it to break when I shoot. The technicalities and mechanics of shooting for me are all in the "conditioned reflex" category with very little conscious thoughts being used during the shot. I guess you call this experience?
One day someone will come up with a system of shooting that is so simple but works. I know we have the likes of Swing Through, CPSA Method, Maintained Lead and Ambushing but each of these individually cannot apply to every situation (talking about Sporting here). Each "Serious Author" seems to take the established basics and adds their little bit of magic to them to make their system stand out from the rest, but in doing so, may make things more complicated for some shooters. Sticking to one method only is like only using 1 club around a golf course, you'll get round, but you would be better off with the rest of the clubs.
The point of this post I suppose is that reading about what to do is one thing, but doing it is another. Not wanting to destroy book sales (as I work in the Book Trade) but learning by doing, with or without a coach is, in my opinion, the best and only reliable way to learn shooting. :biggrin:
I must have comitted all that (from Salopian's post) into my sub-conscious because if I had to think about all that when shooting, I'd never get a shot off! That is not an attempt at being big headed or saying I know it all, but I really don't think of much except the target and causing it to break when I shoot. The technicalities and mechanics of shooting for me are all in the "conditioned reflex" category with very little conscious thoughts being used during the shot. I guess you call this experience?
One day someone will come up with a system of shooting that is so simple but works. I know we have the likes of Swing Through, CPSA Method, Maintained Lead and Ambushing but each of these individually cannot apply to every situation (talking about Sporting here). Each "Serious Author" seems to take the established basics and adds their little bit of magic to them to make their system stand out from the rest, but in doing so, may make things more complicated for some shooters. Sticking to one method only is like only using 1 club around a golf course, you'll get round, but you would be better off with the rest of the clubs.
The point of this post I suppose is that reading about what to do is one thing, but doing it is another. Not wanting to destroy book sales (as I work in the Book Trade) but learning by doing, with or without a coach is, in my opinion, the best and only reliable way to learn shooting. :biggrin:
Will Hewland
Well-known member
Learning with the correct principles is important, or you embed bad habits. A basic principle is that you WILL need to see and perceive lead if you want to be half decent at sporting clays. No f-ing way can you consistently hit long stuff without IMO.
Quite agree Will, but therein lies the problem. We all, and especially the novice, perceive lead differently.
Will Hewland
Well-known member
Rosso
Well-known member
Bryn12
Well-known member
IMO & IMHO, in my opinion & in my humble opinion
I am much better when I shoot instinctively and gun down, probably because I grew up rough shooting rabbits, pigeons and any other legal quarry I came across, I never had lessons until this year. Because I want to take my clay shooting seriously I am now consciously learning the basics. I have no idea whether I shoulder the gun first or gun to cheek to shoulder (something to check), doesn't really matter. What IMHO does matter is that the master eye naturally aligns along the gun and you don't compromise your natural stance/mount to suit the gun.
I am much better when I shoot instinctively and gun down, probably because I grew up rough shooting rabbits, pigeons and any other legal quarry I came across, I never had lessons until this year. Because I want to take my clay shooting seriously I am now consciously learning the basics. I have no idea whether I shoulder the gun first or gun to cheek to shoulder (something to check), doesn't really matter. What IMHO does matter is that the master eye naturally aligns along the gun and you don't compromise your natural stance/mount to suit the gun.
Bryn,
What do you do if the ' Master Eye' is the 'wrong one' ?
Cock your head over?
Will,
I really am surprised at you talking about lead, you know as well as I do that what is really required is the ability to see the mould lines on the clay or the makers name on the clay at 40 -60 yard crossers , mount on the clay and it will break . MAGIC.
These are the little tips that the likes of Faulds and Digweed keep to themselves.
What do you do if the ' Master Eye' is the 'wrong one' ?
Cock your head over?
Will,
I really am surprised at you talking about lead, you know as well as I do that what is really required is the ability to see the mould lines on the clay or the makers name on the clay at 40 -60 yard crossers , mount on the clay and it will break . MAGIC.
These are the little tips that the likes of Faulds and Digweed keep to themselves.
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
Always fascinatin' to see Churchill re-interpreted. Seems as tho he is "discovered" every couple years. Unfortunately the re-interpretation usually is not up to the task. Churchill did just fine as he described the process himself.
I noticed that I watched proficient sporting shooters that they did pretty much just as Churchill suggested whether they knew it or not.
It's a funny old world, ain't it?
I noticed that I watched proficient sporting shooters that they did pretty much just as Churchill suggested whether they knew it or not.
It's a funny old world, ain't it?
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