Guns with POI adjustments

[Hamster]

Following on from the other interesting thread about comb height making a mechanical difference to POI  :smile:  I would like to ask the following :

Why when £200 quids worth of adj comb can seemingly raise your POI at will, do so many manufacturers make guns with adjustable ribs and different barrel hangers which actually DO affect POI ? 

 

[ips]

so that people spend more money on the latest gimick naively thinking there scores will improve when in reality you just end up twiddling knobs and things until your scores plummet and you are left in a state of utter confusion. Then you do one of two things, sell it and by a fixed everything and learn to shoot it or take up golf or similar mundane pastime.

the fact that fiddling with comb height and or ribs CAN effect your scores kind of proves that altering things even slightly does effect poi.

 

[Davy_B]

what ips said there is no point that i can see . just the latest gimmick . and from what i have seen of these adjustable ribs they are a recipe for disaster as they really arent very sturdy at all and can move when picking up the gun by the barrels .

 

[Dog Tyred]

I'm guessing that an adjustable rib allows the Shooter to maintain the same site picture, visible amount of rib, etc, while being able to adjust the point of impact with comb and rib.

Raising or lowering the comb only, changes the view along the barrel. Some people like to shoot a flat rib but have a high POI, while others like to see lots of rib but have a flat shooting gun. 

My thoughts only.

DT

 

[ips]

Raising or lowering the comb only, changes the view along the barrel. 

er, no it doesnt

 

[Dog Tyred]

Errrr...... yes it does. If you raise the comb you also raise your eye relative to the back of the rib. Therefore you see more rib.

 

[ips]

what ips said there is no point that i can see . just the latest gimmick . and from what i have seen of these adjustable ribs they are a recipe for disaster as they really arent very sturdy at all and can move when picking up the gun by the barrels .

yep my 692 x thing suffered exactly that, look at it and the thumb wheel dialled in another setting. Think I lasted two months with the bag of adjustable cack

EE... yes it does. If you raise the comb you also raise your eye relative to the back of the rib. Therefore you see more rib.

deja vu setting in here.

I blame Hamid he posted deliberately . He is probably in bed with man flu and in need of entertainment ?

EE... yes it does. If you raise the comb you also raise your eye relative to the back of the rib. Therefore you see more rib.

quote

ONLY changes the view along the barrell

unquote

yes you see more rib, consequently poi has been raised. That's two things....

 

[Doctor Lecter]

makes me wonder with so much adjustable technology at our fingertips   we should all be in aa aaa   and shooting big scores ? 

 

[ips]

many of us remember the days of fixed choke, fixed comb even adj trigger lop was a rarity. Oh the good old days of unslip your gun and shoot the dammed thing.

 

[jwpzx9r]

On fact that I tend to adhere to is as Greg says raising the comb of a shotgun does nothing other than shift the eye of the shooter higher above the rib. When you mount the gun it I still point in exactly the same direction as it was before the comb was adjusted... if you do not look at the barrels or as I would say "aim shoot your gun" then changes to comb height while very beneficial to helping see the target change does not do much else... IMO... others as we see have different ideas and that is their prerogative .

Errrr...... yes it does. If you raise the comb you also raise your eye relative to the back of the rib. Therefore you see more rib.

Only if you are a barrel gazer Greg  

Following on from the other interesting thread about comb height making a mechanical difference to POI  :smile:  I would like to ask the following :

Why when £200 quids worth of adj comb can seemingly raise your POI at will, do so many manufacturers make guns with adjustable ribs and different barrel hangers which actually DO affect POI ? 

A gun that has a barrel adjustment actually will change your POI when adjusted it is the reason the are fitted. When you change barrel alignment even though your gun mount may be identical after that your barrels are no longer point where you think they are.  

 

[AW13]

So glad I am a new[ish] shotgun shooter. All these minor adjustments seem pointless to me at this stage as I can't see 1mm or 1/8 inch making any material difference to my shooting. I have not long learnt to trust my mount and my eyes and try and totally ignore the gun. If I started to get too bogged down with POI or POA calculations I think I would go backwards and my scores would plummet.

The maths I understand and they are logical, no one can dispute that.

I will continue to watch these debates with interest and at times with much mirth.   

 

[MJJ]

I'm surprised no-one has brought out an adjustable forend hold to compliment an adjustable everything else.  :smile:

 

[Hamster]

A gun that has a barrel adjustment actually will change your POI when adjusted it is the reason the are fitted. When you change barrel alignment even though your gun mount may be identical after that your barrels are no longer point where you think they are.  

Correct. 

I think a few have missed the point with this post, if you clamp your gun in a vice and fire at the pattern plate and then repeat same having raised the comb by 2" or indeed removed it altogether  , there will be NO difference in POI. To materially alter POI you have to make mechanical changes hence why barrel hangers are used to do so whilst maintaining sensible sight pictures mainly for the Trap disciplines where making a gun suited to one target type is not only useful but perhaps even essential. 

Point your outstretched arm at an object whilst viewing it dead flat and hold still, then raise your eye a tad  :clover:  you will see the only actual thing that happens is that YOUR view of the target alters, it becomes easier to see the target during its flight which is the reason many if not most top shots have a highish comb, push your luck by over doing it and you risk two things 1) finding the line and staying with the bird becomes harder and feels unnatural and less fluid 2) you will almost certainly often miss underneath (or behind on incomers) because the  brain thinks the gun is throwing high and will overcompensate by holding too low.......been there done that. 

Some of the best shots in the country use and advocate a higher than average (doesn't mean runway view), do you honestly think they bang in 94+ scores by shooting under everything ? 

 

[ips]

Correct. 

I think a few have missed the point with this post, if you clamp your gun in a vice and fire at the pattern plate and then repeat same having raised the comb by 2" or indeed removed it altogether  , there will be NO difference in POI. To materially alter POI you have to make mechanical changes hence why barrel hangers are used to do so whilst maintaining sensible sight pictures mainly for the Trap disciplines where making a gun suited to one target type is not only useful but perhaps even essential. 

Point your outstretched arm at an object whilst viewing it dead flat and hold still, then raise your eye a tad  :clover:  you will see the only actual thing that happens is that YOUR view of the target alters, it becomes easier to see the target during its flight which is the reason many if not most top shots have a highish comb, push your luck by over doing it and you risk two things 1) finding the line and staying with the bird becomes harder and feels unnatural and less fluid 2) you will almost certainly often miss underneath (or behind on incomers) because the  brain thinks the gun is throwing high and will overcompensate by holding too low.......been there done that. 

Some of the best shots in the country use and advocate a higher than average (doesn't mean runway view), do you honestly think they bang in 94+ scores by shooting under everything ? 

eh ?/?

so if I clamp my barrell in a vice on lets say a 692x and fire at a pattern plate then I drop the rib down at the front I have altered poi but if I do same and raise the comb I haven't altered poi. The fact remains that the shot is still in the same place ?

either adjustment will have same effect of altering poi.

I am now rapidly losing the will to live

ps

Mr salopian has posted on other thread a page from a gunsmith or stock fitting bible or whatever which clearly outlines the effect the comb has on poi. You cant possibly argue against either the bible or Mr salopian

 

[nohoper]

The easy way to answer all these questions is take the gun shoot at a pattern plate make adjustments and see what happens I suggest using full choke at 16 - to 20 metres the changes if ant should be quite easy to see high ,lower or no difference 100 shells and two hours should do it.

 

[Holianl]

Let's all go the pub and forget this conversation ever happened. 

 

[Hamster]

eh ?/?

so if I clamp my barrell in a vice on lets say a 692x and fire at a pattern plate then I drop the rib down at the front I have altered poi but if I do same and raise the comb I haven't altered poi. The fact remains that the shot is still in the same place ?

either adjustment will have same effect of altering poi.

I am now rapidly losing the will to live

ps

Mr salopian has posted on other thread a page from a gunsmith or stock fitting bible or whatever which clearly outlines the effect the comb has on poi. You cant possibly argue against either the bible or Mr salopian

I said clamp the gun meaning the receiver not the barrels  :smile:  and I also mentioned barrel hangers not adj ribs  :wink:  and based on that I stand by my post. The POI will only physically shift if you cause the barrel to point elsewhere using barrel hangers. 

It matters not what the geometry says as I don't disagree with that one bit, the point is that things don't pan out as per graphs in real life on real targets, my experiences are shared by some very capable shooters including world champions  .

The easy way to answer all these questions is take the gun shoot at a pattern plate make adjustments and see what happens I suggest using full choke at 16 - to 20 metres the changes if ant should be quite easy to see high ,lower or no difference 100 shells and two hours should do it.

Actually no it won't, that's the whole point, if you want to prove to yourself that a guns POI will geometrically alter on a pattern plate then go ahead but shooting real targets at varying distances and angles and speeds will soon show you that there will be no perceptible shift in POI (or allowances needing to be made) only that your POAim will have become different, i.e, the gun won't physically be shooting higher but you will see the target more clearly. 

 

[Wonko the Sane]

What total rot  

I can only reiterate - I thank any and all deities associated with shooting that I never had some of you coaching me.  And there is no smiley since that is dead serious

I agree completely with DT.  I also agree that that the adjustos seem too fragile for me to venture there even if I thot there was a need.

Ian - you need to observe the comma in Greg's post and understand what he really intended.  Just sayin'

 

[ips]

Charlie have you got steam emitting from your ears ....i have.

we are fighting a losing battle my friend. ?