Introduction and gun fit question

[Lloyd]

Hi, I am Loyd Pennington from Northampton. I am as of now most definitely a novice.

Since May this year I have done one corporate day hitting 35 out of 50 clays with a Winchester, being a simple slow going away at 30yds and a looper the last twenty clays being thrown as simultaneous pairs.

I then went to Sporting Targets in June and did a CPSA Shot Gun Skills course. I hit about 30 out of fifty (very surprised to hit the rabbit first time). I then booked a lesson on a simulator using a B725 and a DT10 and a F16. Less than satisfactory at hitting but learned that I can follow the line of the clay quite well and repeatedly at varying speeds.

The next day I was back at Sporting Targets and again shot 50 clays, hitting 33, including one from the 120ft tower (took me five goes and I couldn't believe the amount of lead it needed to hit it!).

I have since been for my third lesson a couple of weeks ago and chose to use a Berretta 686 with a 13 1/2" stock and 28” barrels, after some advice from Arthur in the gunroom at E J Churchill. The first 25 clays consisted of a variety of crossers, going away, teal and a left and a right rabbit which I hit both first attempt which was pleasing; overall, I hit 17.

My instructor then asked me to not pre-mount and sent out clays in pairs unsighted, asking me to just shoot whatever I saw. Apparently, I hit all the targets. I'm not sure I can believe it but that’s what I was told; I can’t recall much of the detail. These were not far away or particularly fast (I don't think).

I am shooting from the left shoulder, not simply because I'm left eye dominant/right-handed, but I also have a micro-strabismus in my right eye (micro squint). I don't find this uncomfortable.

When in the Cadets as a youngster then later in the Royal Engineers, I had been constantly told to get my cheekbone down on the stock, despite my protest that I cannot see the bead. Once I began to ignore this instruction, I was grouping 20 rounds at 600 yards in a circle a little bigger than the size of a clay (a rifle is very different from shotgun I know).

I therefore have this question. Should I have proper gun fit ASAP? Some tell me it’s pointless until I have learned to mount my gun properly, but if the stock is too long (feels like I’m stretching out and barrel heavy gun) and the comb too low (even with a shorter stock), how could I learn to mount the gun properly in the first place?

I am 5’6” and of medium build. I apparently mount to low in the shoulder (though this has been exasperated with a 14”+ LoP), and until trying the shorter stock (perhaps a little too short) had been getting more than three fingers between by nose and hand.

It has been suggested by a couple of gun rooms that a Monte Carlo is for women. Personally, I think that’s nonsense. I’d rather hit more clays with a gun with a pink stock with yellow daisies painted on than hit none with some manly gun.

Thanks in advance

 

[Sian]

Hi, I am Loyd Pennington from Northampton. I am as of now most definitely a novice.

Since May this year I have done one corporate day hitting 35 out of 50 clays with a Winchester, being a simple slow going away at 30yds and a looper the last twenty clays being thrown as simultaneous pairs.

I then went to Sporting Targets in June and did a CPSA Shot Gun Skills course. I hit about 30 out of fifty (very surprised to hit the rabbit first time). I then booked a lesson on a simulator using a B725 and a DT10 and a F16. Less than satisfactory at hitting but learned that I can follow the line of the clay quite well and repeatedly at varying speeds.

The next day I was back at Sporting Targets and again shot 50 clays, hitting 33, including one from the 120ft tower (took me five goes and I couldn't believe the amount of lead it needed to hit it!).

I have since been for my third lesson a couple of weeks ago and chose to use a Berretta 686 with a 13 1/2" stock and 28” barrels, after some advice from Arthur in the gunroom at E J Churchill. The first 25 clays consisted of a variety of crossers, going away, teal and a left and a right rabbit which I hit both first attempt which was pleasing; overall, I hit 17.

My instructor then asked me to not pre-mount and sent out clays in pairs unsighted, asking me to just shoot whatever I saw. Apparently, I hit all the targets. I'm not sure I can believe it but that’s what I was told; I can’t recall much of the detail. These were not far away or particularly fast (I don't think).

I am shooting from the left shoulder, not simply because I'm left eye dominant/right-handed, but I also have a micro-strabismus in my right eye (micro squint). I don't find this uncomfortable.

When in the Cadets as a youngster then later in the Royal Engineers, I had been constantly told to get my cheekbone down on the stock, despite my protest that I cannot see the bead. Once I began to ignore this instruction, I was grouping 20 rounds at 600 yards in a circle a little bigger than the size of a clay (a rifle is very different from shotgun I know).

I therefore have this question. Should I have proper gun fit ASAP? Some tell me it’s pointless until I have learned to mount my gun properly, but if the stock is too long (feels like I’m stretching out and barrel heavy gun) and the comb too low (even with a shorter stock), how could I learn to mount the gun properly in the first place?

I am 5’6” and of medium build. I apparently mount to low in the shoulder (though this has been exasperated with a 14”+ LoP), and until trying the shorter stock (perhaps a little too short) had been getting more than three fingers between by nose and hand.

It has been suggested by a couple of gun rooms that a Monte Carlo is for women. Personally, I think that’s nonsense. I’d rather hit more clays with a gun with a pink stock with yellow daisies painted on than hit none with some manly gun.

Thanks in advance

Personally I would say you can get away with a shorter stock rather than one that is too long.  Some say don’t bother having a proper gun fit until your mount is good but I have always had my guns fitted even the very first one I had.  You may tweak later but you do better to have a gun that is basically a good fit.  Whoever told you a Monte Carlo stock is a woman’s stock I think has confused you.  Lots of women benefit from this type of stock but there are plenty of men who have one, choose to have one and shoot well with one.  

 

[Hamster]

Whenever I went to a karting day the thing you noticed is how they'd expect everyone regardless of their physical size to just jump from kart to kart without any adjustment whatsoever ! Not being able to reach the accelerator comfortably was more than made up for in the fact I was lighter   but even more important was the reality that some karts were just faster period. This could be  because their engine was fresher, or less off tune (as many clearly were), or that the tyres weren't as shot as the others, or that the set up of the various components were such that at that track at least, the kart in question was superior. In reality it's usually a combination of these things. 

We all quickly sussed these things and would do our best to get the good cars during the "heats". I recall chatting to a "pro" not connected to our day who, unsurprisingly to me (as I was already into clays by then), told me that his kart was set up exactly for him and that he had the engine handstripped every so many meets etc, etc,. He also said he was spending something like £400 per month on his hobby which if my guesstimate of the year being 1989 is correct was an eye watering sum, I remember saying I wished I could swap onto karts myself because even then I knew clays were likely to always remain a money pit with no real prospect of any financial returns but I digress.

Anyway, the above had to be said because I believe you are me (with clays) as I was back then (with karts). 

I'm afraid I don't have a quick fix answer for you, the early years can be tedious or they can be fairly meteoric depending on whether the combination of your individual physical requirements and inherent abilities happen to luck into the right gun or two, in practice the best you can do after you've had a few outings with try guns etc, is to go to a gun shop and pick up a few 2nd hand samples and dry mount them for feel. I do agree that ignoring certain advice can be beneficial, for example the books I read at the beginning all advised the kind of sight picture that today is deemed too low. 

Don't worry too much about "handling", I personally think it's a rather meaningless quip since it's the score that matters. Often a gun feels like "an extension of your arms" in the shop but it could easily be because it's too damn light , another could feel somewhat less easy to move from point to point but leave the other standing when it comes to the bottom line, (often because it's a little heavier) i.e crosses on the card. 

Pick one that doesn't need too much work to begin with, it needs to come up easily to your eye line/shoulder without catching your clothes (14.5" is about right for most) and once shouldered you need to see a bit of rib centrally, if your eye tends to sit one side or the other (even by a small amount) of the rib then the gun needs cast on/off and is best left on the rack for now. At this stage of your development close enough is most definitely good enough. 

I don't believe a gun can be fitted to you in the shop nor do I believe that just because a fitter gets a gun to throw correctly onto a pattern sheet that that constitutes "fit", (otherwise nobody would ever sell their custom fitted Perazzi would they ?),   the fine detail can only be arrived at by yourself over prolonged shooting and hopefully corrected as you get better. How the gun behaves under recoil, how it copes with dozens of target presentations and the score card determine whether it "fits" or not. Everything is always a compromise, the trick is to compromise on things that matter less. 

My advice would be to buy an inexpensive gun that suits you for now, something like a Beretta 687 30" or Miroku 3800 or Browning for around £800, whichever feels OK in your hands. No coach or fitter is going to know how the gun feels under recoil, the best they can do is to watch you mount it and make sure it throws correctly onto a pattern sheet - but you can do that yourself ! No fitter will know exactly what length the stock needs to be nor whether it needs pitch work (forget I even said that). 

As you progress and shoot many thousands of cartridges you yourself will begin to realise if the gun needs certain things to make shooting it easier, in truth by then you will probably know enough to just go out and replace it with a better model which may or may not need a little fine tuning to make it an excellent compromise. 

 

[Will Hewland]

All good comments above. The quickest summary is, there is a big difference between a gun that really doesn’t fit and fine tune gun fit. You must avoid the former and in time you can consider the latter, in a bid to hit 2% more. 

 

[Lloyd]

Thank you for your replies. That really does make it much clearer to me so feel I now have a better idea of what to do next. Very much appreciated.

Of everything I have tried thus far (dry), the gun that comes up to the shoulder most effortlessly and repeatedly, the gun that feels most like I'm just holding my arms out and not aware of the gun much at all is a 28" barreled Browning B525 Liberty. The gun that I have actually shot and felt most maneuverable was also a Browning B525 with 30" barrels. The LoP did make it feel a little cumbersome to mount and still felt a touch low in the comb, partly due to the LoP I believe.

Seems unlikely I'll find a second hand Liberty in L/H with 28" or 30" barrels for under £1,000, but I'm commited enough to the sport to invest in a new one if necessary.

Of all the Baretta's I have tried, something I can't put my finger on just didn't feel right, or at least not as right as the Browning or even the old Winchester I first shot.

Stock dimensions aside, I have near fallen in love with Blaser's action. The ease at which it opens and closes I really liked. Other guns have felt more intrusive in the thought/feeling. 

Alas I haven't found an F16 that with standard stock dimensions comes up to the shoulder at all naturally. In fact so far it's been the most cumbersome; nor do I get on with the palm swell. Their Intuition stock is only available R/H, otherwise it might suit. Committed as I may be, spending £4k to have a factory altered stock seems a bit risky at my stage of development.

I am in no major hurry to buy something. In fact I figured I'd wait until the Shooting Show in February where I could try many guns in one day, narrow down the possibilities and decide sometime after that.

In the meantime, the good folks at Sporting Targets have kindly modified a Beretta 686 30" barrelled and put the 13 1/2" stock on it and will be adding a comb raiser and extending the butt pad a little to see how it compares to the 28" barreled without the extension I tried the last time out.

Again, thank you for your advice.

 

[Will Hewland]

Thank you for your replies. That really does make it much clearer to me so feel I now have a better idea of what to do next. Very much appreciated.

Of everything I have tried thus far (dry), the gun that comes up to the shoulder most effortlessly and repeatedly, the gun that feels most like I'm just holding my arms out and not aware of the gun much at all is a 28" barreled Browning B525 Liberty.

As Hamid says, beware a light gun as it will always feel nicer, in the shop, to a newbie. My first gun was a 28" Game Beretta for this reason. It was soon changed once I got going.. I really recommend an approx 8lb gun and 30" barrels which will be better for recoil and steadier to guide.

 

[Bebo]

If you want to have a try of a 13.5 LOP Beretta DT10 with 28" barrels, you are welcome to have a try of mine.  Don't get up to Sporting Targets often, but try to get to AGL for their monthly registered shoot.  Happy to bring it along to that.

 

[Lloyd]

Thanks Will. So far, the actual mass of the guns I have tried have varied between a smidgen under 7lbs and a bit over 8lbs. I have hardly noticed the overall mass, but the B725 in particular felt forward heavy, but not overall too heavy. I'm sure this could be counterbalanced?

In terms of recoil, I can't say I have felt it to be much of an issue per se. I had noticed that the shorter and much lighter 686, 13 1/2" Lop, 28" barreled gun give me no bruising at all whilst the B725 30" w/ 14 3/4" LoP and similarly dimensioned 686 left a very slight bruising, just breaking a few capillaries but no soreness. I've been using 28g cartridges.

On the other hand, I can't say that at my stage of development how muzzle flip may be having an effect. I'm hardly aware yet of these finer details. In fact everytime I try to become aware I miss more often than I dont and everytime I dont think about lead and just look directly at the clay, I seem to hit. I'm led to believe this is quite a common phenomenon.

As a point of interest, has any manufacturer used anything like a "tuned mass damper"? (basically a carefully calculated floating sprung weight). I'm fairly sure this would reduce felt  recoil significantly and could be designed to near eliminate muzzle flip.

@BeboWOW! That's mighty generous of you. Thank you for the kind offer. I do have plans to visit other grounds and AGL is on my To Do list.

I'll look up the next dates at AGL and hopefully see you there.

Again, thank you so very much

 

[Will Hewland]

Thanks Will. So far, the actual mass of the guns I have tried have varied between a smidgen under 7lbs and a bit over 8lbs. I have hardly noticed the overall mass, but the B725 in particular felt forward heavy, but not overall too heavy. I'm sure this could be counterbalanced?

In terms of recoil, I can't say I have felt it to be much of an issue per se. I had noticed that the shorter and much lighter 686, 13 1/2" Lop, 28" barreled gun give me no bruising at all whilst the B725 30" w/ 14 3/4" LoP and similarly dimensioned 686 left a very slight bruising, just breaking a few capillaries but no soreness. I've been using 28g cartridges.

On the other hand, I can't say that at my stage of development how muzzle flip may be having an effect. I'm hardly aware yet of these finer details. In fact everytime I try to become aware I miss more often than I dont and everytime I dont think about lead and just look directly at the clay, I seem to hit. I'm led to believe this is quite a common phenomenon.

As a point of interest, has any manufacturer used anything like a "tuned mass damper"? (basically a carefully calculated floating sprung weight). I'm fairly sure this would reduce felt  recoil significantly and could be designed to near eliminate muzzle flip.

@BeboWOW! That's mighty generous of you. Thank you for the kind offer. I do have plans to visit other grounds and AGL is on my To Do list.

I'll look up the next dates at AGL and hopefully see you there.

Again, thank you so very much

Felt recoil is also a factor of how well you are mounting it (either because it fits you or how you are trying to..). Something as simple as the butt pad shape/ material makes a big difference and should be judged apart from the rest of the gun, because you can easily change them.

A nose-heavy gun is not liked by many shooters, myself included. (Some like it though). IMO, adding a load of weight in the stock to balance it achieves only a certain amount of gain in mounting. Once you are moving and its barrel heavy, that is the main character of the gun I feel. Personally, to make a generalisation I like an 8.5lb gun with light barrels

 

[Lloyd]

Thanks Will. I did wonder if I wasn't just being finicky and forward weight bias would be or even should be something I'd get used to overtime.

I expect I could get used to it with time, but so much of what I have read is, shooting clays is at least as much about the feel as it is about the technique. Maybe more?

Gun room sales staff I'm told can try to get a person to fit the gun by overly modifying their natural mount (I'm sure this isn't representative of all gun rooms).

A forward weight bias would reduce muzzle flip; I assume based on the laws of physics? Though in my general life experiences, human/machine interactions sometimes flies in the face of science.

 

[Bebo]

@BeboWOW! That's mighty generous of you. Thank you for the kind offer. I do have plans to visit other grounds and AGL is on my To Do list.

I'll look up the next dates at AGL and hopefully see you there.

Again, thank you so very much

It may not suit you if you are a lefty, although I've got no idea how much cast it has.  It doesn't get used very often these days.

I'm with Will on nose heavy guns.  Can't stand them.  Tried a perazzi a few years ago that was massively barrel heavy and kept shooting over the top of a simple going away target.  Took such a push to get it moving that it was zooming past the target.  My K80 Parcours is round the 8lb mark, but very well balanced and therefore easy to point.

 

[westley]

I think the advice from the other guys,  pretty much has it covered really, but just something about Monte Carlo stocks. Whoever told you they were mainly for women was talking through an orifice other than the one on his face !  Yes, they do tend to suit women, but one hell of a lot of men too. When I ran a shooting ground we had an old Miroku 3800 trap gun with a Monte Carlo stock, almost everyone that picked up that gun, shot well with it. The comb being parallel to the rib means that wherever your face is on the wood, you should be looking along the rib. Obviously the gun had a lot of other favourable handling characteristics too, but the Monte Carlo stock was a major factor in the fit of the gun, to suit most people. 

 

[AJB Temple]

My thoughts as a novice as well. Had a gun 30 years ago and was a decent shot at farm clay shoots (at least in my mind). Break of  28 years apart from a few corporate type and birthday shoots (lessons / loaner gun).  Started recently with No 1 offspring (22) and I've had 6 lessons and 10 practice shoots.  Certain clays (teal, crossers, going away, high overhead) I can hit 70% typically (especially with coach - 55% on my own as mistake correction is slow) and others 10% (rabbits, skeet central pegs). This with no competition pressure or watchers (makes me worse).  What this tells me is I am too coach dependent, but I forgive myself as a novice.  

Started with a 28" silver pig club loaner, which was fine.  Very light.  (I am 6ft 2" and 100Kg - not a thin little fella).  Must wear glasses for everything. 

My son shoots Beretta better than me.  Frankly, at 22 I think he could shoot a pogo stick better than me. 

Set a budget limit of £2k on gun and tried all sorts of stuff new and used.  Beretta, Miroku, Browning, AMA. Winchester, Remington and brands I forget or never knew.  Liked a Beratta Gold E from the 80's and would have bought it but was over priced by a stroppy private seller who wanted to flog a load of ancient cartridges and other junk to me as well.  Tried a few Miroku's and made an offer on a very nice MK 80 high pheasant with nice wood, 32".  We parted company £200 apart as a new MK38 or 80 (or is it a 60 - see I am a novice) with bland wood, brand new was £500 cheaper from dealer in Tunbridge Wells and I was primarily a first gun buyer not a wood buyer.   

Finally bought a used Browning B125 with custom shop stamps, case and all that, really nice wood.  Quite obviously minimal wear and perfect barrels.  I guess it dates from the 80s. The reason I bought it though was it was a very good fit and came up  to my shoulder well.  Coach agrees (2nd coach I have tried) and he is down to earth, no nonsense brilliant bloke who just tells me stuff straight.  Engraving was not naff. Immaculate condition, fully serviced by reputable well known dealer, and dealer guarantee of a year.  This was way better than the Silver Pig to shoot as it was a lot heavier (no idea now heavy actually) and far better balanced for my size.  Much more relaxing to shoot.  New Invicta chokes. I don't play about with them as frankly I have no idea. Not wild about the trigger to be honest, which I would prefer to have absolutely zero slop.  (I am a lifelong pianist - don't get me started on key slop on el cheapo pianos).  

So far I have put circa 2,000 shells through it it in about 5 weeks.  I doubt I will ever sell it (tend to keep stuff), and I might modify the trigger tolerances (engineering is no big deal as I have facilities) but I know I will upgrade to something fancier if I actually learn to shoot.  

For me good gun fit was fundamental, as was good balance.  I knew I needed to forget about the gun.  This last week I have started to feel that that the gun is a good tool that I don't need to fret about and criticise.  I also knew that my personality requires a nicely made, pretty gun.  I don't care about brands at all.  I do like engineering quality.  

Shotguns are pretty simple in essence and I feel that practice and talent is the key as long as the gun is a decent fit and not a mechanical dog.  

Money needs to go on shells, clays and lessons.  

My advice: expect to make mistakes and don't sweat it.  If you buy a gun for £1,200 and it does not suit you, it will still sell for a grand or so and the actual cost of that loss is peanuts in your learning curve.  That equation gets more extreme as you go up in price, but no need to go there yet. You will lose the 20% VAT plus 1)% on any new gun the moment you leave the dealership.  

A thousand shells is circa £190 and your operating cost of shells, clays and lessons is more cash consumptive that depreciation loss on most guns.  

 

[Lloyd]

@AJB Temple Sounds logical. I too am not interested in "buying wood" ( I do that for making furniture) and I am very interested in quality engineering (day job)

 

[El Spavo]

yup, pretty much where I'm at... my Browning is incredibly bland but it does the job, and I bought it for less than a grand so I reckon If I wanted to sell it privately I should make it make or thereabouts. No brainer.

Having said that, can't see me getting rid, so bit of a moot point.  

 

[chippy]

I've just seen the best piece of advice on gun fit. " If your shoulder hurts after firing the gun turn it around"

 

[rocky]

Whenever I went to a karting day the thing you noticed is how they'd expect everyone regardless of their physical size to just jump from kart to kart without any adjustment whatsoever ! Not being able to reach the accelerator comfortably was more than made up for in the fact I was lighter   but even more important was the reality that some karts were just faster period. This could be  because their engine was fresher, or less off tune (as many clearly were), or that the tyres weren't as shot as the others, or that the set up of the various components were such that at that track at least, the kart in question was superior. In reality it's usually a combination of these things. 

We all quickly sussed these things and would do our best to get the good cars during the "heats". I recall chatting to a "pro" not connected to our day who, unsurprisingly to me (as I was already into clays by then), told me that his kart was set up exactly for him and that he had the engine handstripped every so many meets etc, etc,. He also said he was spending something like £400 per month on his hobby which if my guesstimate of the year being 1989 is correct was an eye watering sum, I remember saying I wished I could swap onto karts myself because even then I knew clays were likely to always remain a money pit with no real prospect of any financial returns but I digress.

Anyway, the above had to be said because I believe you are me (with clays) as I was back then (with karts). 

I'm afraid I don't have a quick fix answer for you, the early years can be tedious or they can be fairly meteoric depending on whether the combination of your individual physical requirements and inherent abilities happen to luck into the right gun or two, in practice the best you can do after you've had a few outings with try guns etc, is to go to a gun shop and pick up a few 2nd hand samples and dry mount them for feel. I do agree that ignoring certain advice can be beneficial, for example the books I read at the beginning all advised the kind of sight picture that today is deemed too low. 

Don't worry too much about "handling", I personally think it's a rather meaningless quip since it's the score that matters. Often a gun feels like "an extension of your arms" in the shop but it could easily be because it's too damn light , another could feel somewhat less easy to move from point to point but leave the other standing when it comes to the bottom line, (often because it's a little heavier) i.e crosses on the card. 

Pick one that doesn't need too much work to begin with, it needs to come up easily to your eye line/shoulder without catching your clothes (14.5" is about right for most) and once shouldered you need to see a bit of rib centrally, if your eye tends to sit one side or the other (even by a small amount) of the rib then the gun needs cast on/off and is best left on the rack for now. At this stage of your development close enough is most definitely good enough. 

I don't believe a gun can be fitted to you in the shop nor do I believe that just because a fitter gets a gun to throw correctly onto a pattern sheet that that constitutes "fit", (otherwise nobody would ever sell their custom fitted Perazzi would they ?),   the fine detail can only be arrived at by yourself over prolonged shooting and hopefully corrected as you get better. How the gun behaves under recoil, how it copes with dozens of target presentations and the score card determine whether it "fits" or not. Everything is always a compromise, the trick is to compromise on things that matter less. 

My advice would be to buy an inexpensive gun that suits you for now, something like a Beretta 687 30" or Miroku 3800 or Browning for around £800, whichever feels OK in your hands. No coach or fitter is going to know how the gun feels under recoil, the best they can do is to watch you mount it and make sure it throws correctly onto a pattern sheet - but you can do that yourself ! No fitter will know exactly what length the stock needs to be nor whether it needs pitch work (forget I even said that). 

As you progress and shoot many thousands of cartridges you yourself will begin to realise if the gun needs certain things to make shooting it easier, in truth by then you will probably know enough to just go out and replace it with a better model which may or may not need a little fine tuning to make it an excellent compromise. 

When I did karting (early 80’s) my dad had my seats made to fit me - I felt ever so posh until I realised it was the norm  

 

[bordergun]

For those interested there is a (lengthy!) article re gun fit here:- www.peteblakeley.com Please go to GUNFIT on the drop down menu.

 

[bordergun]

Lloyd On the OP, can I ask what the "simulator" was? Thank you.

 

[MartynB]

Lloyd hasn’t posted on here for a couple of years now , so if you don’t get a reply he’s not ignoring your request .