Lead Ammunition Group imminent report
- Thread starter Salopian
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Well something called Bismuth was banded about many years ago, but I recall that it cost a bomb! So many guns can now take steel and even those that are not proffed for it could possibly be used, subject to re proofing after speaking to whoever made the gun. The most worrying thing for me personally would be the hitting power of steel, especially at long range, edge on targets such as those found on OT and ABT layouts! Steel simply does not have as much clout/weight behind it when compared to the same size of lead shot, steel is not likely to deform very much, if at all on impact either! Steel could mean that the disciplines and the clays would need to be changed to accomodate it. I seem to remember speaking to Fred (40UP) about this subject a year or two back.
Paul120
Well-known member
Pirate Salmon
Well-known member
Question is, if this goes though, will it be the end of clays in the UK?
I cannot see many people using the alternatives, whatever they are!
I cannot see many people using the alternatives, whatever they are!
Well some will say it will be the end, however I'm not one of them! Lead costs more than steel, so if steel shells were made in bigger quantities than they are now, we could have cheaper shells. Hitting power and energy are the main issues I would think, lead will strike harder at greater distance for a given shot size. Yes some guns would need to be re proofed for steel shot and possibly re barreled to shoot steel, but it's better than not shooting at all as far as I'm concerned! There have been a lot of changes in clay shooting over the years, shells have changed, some disciplines have changed, guns have changed, shell powder has changed. OK we don't want to lose lead, but it will not stop me shooting, so long as I still have somewhere to shoot that is!
I really am amazed at how this issue has been with us for nearly twenty years and many of you do not know anything about it!
The CPSA are on record as saying they were happy to let BASC represent them in any debate on the banning of Lead shot.
Many claygrounds already ban the use of Steel shot (which is actually soft iron wire cut into short pieces and then centrifugally spun (barrelled ) to make it spherical.
Premium loads of steel shot cartridges are more expensive than many brands of Lead cartridges.
Steel is perfectly suitable for Skeet shooting, but very poor for Trap and Sporting because of the greater distances involved Steel shot has less kinetic energy retention properties.
Anyone who wishes to familiarise themselves with the issue should read the many comments on Pigeonwatch UK under General Discussion .
British made classic guns such as BEST and quality SxS Game guns will be rendered obsolete immediately Lead is banned apart from them shooting Bismuth which is very expensive and not naturally sustainable as a resource.
The Tungsten Matrix variants are now causing concern as allegedly scientists believe that Tungsten may be carconagenic ( causes cancer) from research in America.
The CPSA are on record as saying they were happy to let BASC represent them in any debate on the banning of Lead shot.
Many claygrounds already ban the use of Steel shot (which is actually soft iron wire cut into short pieces and then centrifugally spun (barrelled ) to make it spherical.
Premium loads of steel shot cartridges are more expensive than many brands of Lead cartridges.
Steel is perfectly suitable for Skeet shooting, but very poor for Trap and Sporting because of the greater distances involved Steel shot has less kinetic energy retention properties.
Anyone who wishes to familiarise themselves with the issue should read the many comments on Pigeonwatch UK under General Discussion .
British made classic guns such as BEST and quality SxS Game guns will be rendered obsolete immediately Lead is banned apart from them shooting Bismuth which is very expensive and not naturally sustainable as a resource.
The Tungsten Matrix variants are now causing concern as allegedly scientists believe that Tungsten may be carconagenic ( causes cancer) from research in America.
Jim Wheeler
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
- Messages
- 904
it appears that most big manufacturers make steel shot, at about the same price as cheaper lead ammo, except fibre is 20% dearer. I think ricochets are first problem, so avoid hitting things like tree trunks ,fencing posts and such? tame the distances on targets to where they will still break,, no more 70 odd yarders ! maybe a larger pellet of 3mm,and up the speed to 1600 fps, still going to slow down quickly,,,
then after 25 years the bunny huggers can form a group called `steel ammunition group` and investigate why the UK is sinking into the sea,
think I prefer Lead,,,,
then after 25 years the bunny huggers can form a group called `steel ammunition group` and investigate why the UK is sinking into the sea,
think I prefer Lead,,,,
One offer I saw was offering alternative shot cartridges, and I quote :- Kent Tungsten matrix cartridges £29.00 per 25. Will this mean the end of 'Sponsorship' I wonder !
Dunc
Well-known member
[SIZE=10.5pt]OK folks[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]There is no imminent ban on lead shot. But I'm sure many of you know that it's already banned for waterfowl shooting. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt](In England the lead shot regulations ban the use of lead shot over all foreshore, over specified SSSIs, and for the shooting of all ducks and geese, coot and moorhen, wherever they occur. ) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]It doesn't help that ********* continue to shoot duck with lead and when that's found in butcher's shops or elsewhere in the trade, then it's clear that shooters are not adhering to the law. Even though in this case it (the law) is an ***, it is still a poor show for shooters to use lead to shoot duck and does nobody any favours.[/SIZE]
And there's more info re all this here http://basc.org.uk/lead/
[SIZE=10.5pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Here's a little more from an update on the BASC site this afternoon - [/SIZE]
Lead ammunition – Your questions & answers
Posted on Feb 11, 2015
Q: Is shooting facing government proposals to ban lead ammunition?
A: No. While some antis are campaigning for a ban, government have no proposals to do so and no political party has a policy to ban.
Q: Is it true that BASC have let us down and potentially lost us lead shot?
A: No. BASC’s policy is “no sound evidence, no change.” BASC has rigorously tested all evidence produced against lead ammunition. It has held politicians and regulators to account, demanding that they only act on sound evidence and in accordance with the principles of better regulation.
BASC’s full policy on lead ammunition can be found here.
Q: Is BASC represented on the Lead Ammunition Group (LAG)?
A: Yes. The representative for the shooting organisations on the LAG is currently Sir Barney White Spunner, the Executive Chairman of the Countryside Alliance.
The independent Chairman of the LAG is John Swift. He is not employed by BASC and is no longer a member. He does not represent BASC.
Q: What about the emails I’ve heard about from LAG to the government?
A: These emails are expressions of opinion. They represent exchanges of views and do not reflect any formal report. No report has been agreed by LAG, no report has been seen by the members of LAG and no report has been sent to government by LAG.
Q: Does LAG have the authority to set the law on lead shot?
A: No. The LAG’s remit is to advise the Department for the Environment and Rural Affairs (Defra) and the Food Standards Agency (FSA) on the “key risks to wildlife from lead ammunition, the respective levels of those risks and to explore possible solutions to any significant risks; and possible options for managing the risk to human health from the increased exposure to lead as a result of using lead ammunition”.
Full terms of reference for the group can be found here.
Q: Does DEFRA or the FSA have to act on the LAG’s advice?
A: No they do not. Any advice from LAG is not binding on Defra or the FSA.
Q: Can BASC lobby DEFRA if a LAG report is published?
A: Yes. Any recommendations that would require a change in the law on lead ammunition will involve discussions in government, consultation with stakeholders including BASC, public consultation and could involve debate in parliament.
Q: Does DEFRA or the FSA have the authority to set the law on lead shot?
A: No. Defra or the FSA may propose a change to the law but this would have to be agreed by all government departments and be laid before parliament for MPs and Peers to have their say.
Q: Can BASC lobby parliament if the government proposes a change in the law on lead ammunition?
A: Yes. BASC already briefs MPs and Peers on a range of issues affecting shooting such as lead ammunition.
Q: What can I do to help avoid a ban on lead ammunition?
A: You can support all shooting organisations’ calls for shooters to comply with the law on lead ammunition.
[SIZE=10.5pt]There is no imminent ban on lead shot. But I'm sure many of you know that it's already banned for waterfowl shooting. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt](In England the lead shot regulations ban the use of lead shot over all foreshore, over specified SSSIs, and for the shooting of all ducks and geese, coot and moorhen, wherever they occur. ) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]It doesn't help that ********* continue to shoot duck with lead and when that's found in butcher's shops or elsewhere in the trade, then it's clear that shooters are not adhering to the law. Even though in this case it (the law) is an ***, it is still a poor show for shooters to use lead to shoot duck and does nobody any favours.[/SIZE]
And there's more info re all this here http://basc.org.uk/lead/
[SIZE=10.5pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Here's a little more from an update on the BASC site this afternoon - [/SIZE]
Lead ammunition – Your questions & answers
Posted on Feb 11, 2015
Q: Is shooting facing government proposals to ban lead ammunition?
A: No. While some antis are campaigning for a ban, government have no proposals to do so and no political party has a policy to ban.
Q: Is it true that BASC have let us down and potentially lost us lead shot?
A: No. BASC’s policy is “no sound evidence, no change.” BASC has rigorously tested all evidence produced against lead ammunition. It has held politicians and regulators to account, demanding that they only act on sound evidence and in accordance with the principles of better regulation.
BASC’s full policy on lead ammunition can be found here.
Q: Is BASC represented on the Lead Ammunition Group (LAG)?
A: Yes. The representative for the shooting organisations on the LAG is currently Sir Barney White Spunner, the Executive Chairman of the Countryside Alliance.
The independent Chairman of the LAG is John Swift. He is not employed by BASC and is no longer a member. He does not represent BASC.
Q: What about the emails I’ve heard about from LAG to the government?
A: These emails are expressions of opinion. They represent exchanges of views and do not reflect any formal report. No report has been agreed by LAG, no report has been seen by the members of LAG and no report has been sent to government by LAG.
Q: Does LAG have the authority to set the law on lead shot?
A: No. The LAG’s remit is to advise the Department for the Environment and Rural Affairs (Defra) and the Food Standards Agency (FSA) on the “key risks to wildlife from lead ammunition, the respective levels of those risks and to explore possible solutions to any significant risks; and possible options for managing the risk to human health from the increased exposure to lead as a result of using lead ammunition”.
Full terms of reference for the group can be found here.
Q: Does DEFRA or the FSA have to act on the LAG’s advice?
A: No they do not. Any advice from LAG is not binding on Defra or the FSA.
Q: Can BASC lobby DEFRA if a LAG report is published?
A: Yes. Any recommendations that would require a change in the law on lead ammunition will involve discussions in government, consultation with stakeholders including BASC, public consultation and could involve debate in parliament.
Q: Does DEFRA or the FSA have the authority to set the law on lead shot?
A: No. Defra or the FSA may propose a change to the law but this would have to be agreed by all government departments and be laid before parliament for MPs and Peers to have their say.
Q: Can BASC lobby parliament if the government proposes a change in the law on lead ammunition?
A: Yes. BASC already briefs MPs and Peers on a range of issues affecting shooting such as lead ammunition.
Q: What can I do to help avoid a ban on lead ammunition?
A: You can support all shooting organisations’ calls for shooters to comply with the law on lead ammunition.
Michael
Well-known member
No the Parrot does NOT agree, it would appear that there are too many GREY areas !
Michael
Well-known member
Har har har.
BTC3
Well-known member
Is there a materials science R&D project for one or several of the cartridge makers to commission that seeks to identify or create a material that is chemically inert, biodegradable, and has the same density and malleability (is that a real word?) as lead?
Coming up with a real world alternative to unicorn droppings or unobtainium might prove to be quite lucrative...
Coming up with a real world alternative to unicorn droppings or unobtainium might prove to be quite lucrative...
RobertBeard
Moderator
But would you stop shooting if lead was banned?Tinker bell said:
As far as I'm concerned, right now the biggest issue we have in clay shooting is the amount of grounds that have closed or are in danger of being closed, often by some single, no nothing numpty !!! If we did have to use steel shot, then it would be one less thing for the tree huggers/earth savers to moan about!
garry2749
Well-known member
And indoor shooting facilities that we can clean up behind ourselves. Mate we cant moan we haven't got anywhere to shoot anyway. :fie: :fie:
This issue has dragged on for the past 30 years, if it drags on for another 30 I will be gone, never mind the lead cartridges !
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