So from this we will carry on with our current supplier/cart brand and you can happily keep knocking out your Game carts George
Proper Cartridges
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So you're claiming your current £200 thou stuff is the equal of Superbs, fine, can you call Scott at Greenfields of Canterbury 01227 713222 and drop a few thou off so we can see what they're like, and I keep repeating this : don't go buying cheaper bits and pieces OR skimp on the 28g load we're allowed. We're not after budget bin ends.
Jim Wheeler
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Well, with all due respect to you George, i recon your biggest advantage over the competition is that you do not need to advertise or give out freebies. the fact that you have no capacity to make component parts is a limiting factor, so you only assemble a shell. so you pay a profit to all your suppliers for cases, shot ,wads, primers, and propellant.
so you can make a decent product. but not a competitively priced one, as far as clay shooting is concerned?
I might add, that most clay shooters are not too worried so much about high quality components, if it go`s bang and breaks the target, 80%of us wouldn't know the difference in performance, a bit like choke selection. point the barrels in the right place, and it won`t really matter as long as it breaks!
so you can make a decent product. but not a competitively priced one, as far as clay shooting is concerned?
I might add, that most clay shooters are not too worried so much about high quality components, if it go`s bang and breaks the target, 80%of us wouldn't know the difference in performance, a bit like choke selection. point the barrels in the right place, and it won`t really matter as long as it breaks!
Worcs
Well-known member
Sorry, someone has to say it but George seems like a complete waste of time. There are clearly many people here willing to pay a fair price for a fair cartridge, and no doubt, thousands more across all the clay rounds up and down the country. All George seems to be interested in is justifying the quality of his shells and finding some pigeon shooting to sweeten the deal.
For f***s sake George, you have the setup to supply a huge demand for a decent fair priced cartridge, ever heard of the phrase "stack em high, sell em cheap". You have been asked many times to provide a quote but you continue to write unintelligible responses to simple questions.
The fact that this thread has so much interest shows there is demand for some sort of syndicate to purchase in volume. I don't have any contacts or knowledge of how to proceed, but I for one would be willing to chip in for 5 to 10k in a bulk order from somewhere.
Edit: To clarify, 5 - 10k for me personally. times that by 20 people, that's up to 200,000 cartridges.
For f***s sake George, you have the setup to supply a huge demand for a decent fair priced cartridge, ever heard of the phrase "stack em high, sell em cheap". You have been asked many times to provide a quote but you continue to write unintelligible responses to simple questions.
The fact that this thread has so much interest shows there is demand for some sort of syndicate to purchase in volume. I don't have any contacts or knowledge of how to proceed, but I for one would be willing to chip in for 5 to 10k in a bulk order from somewhere.
Edit: To clarify, 5 - 10k for me personally. times that by 20 people, that's up to 200,000 cartridges.
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ChrisPackham
Well-known member
Guys, with respect you have missed George's hidden point. It seems that he is suggesting top spec carts at 30 less per though so better carts for the same money rather than cheaper mid range stuff. To be fair if George is running at capacity then why chase down margins vs top spec clay loads or game loads, communication however seems a stretch..
I don't think George is running anywhere near capacity, reading between the lines I think his business model is based on minimum fixed costs such as wages, near zero advertising, zero sponsorship, production based on confirmed orders as opposed to rolling stocks (very expensive) and doing exactly what HE wants. There is nothing wrong in any of that because he's picking off the bits the big boyz can't and doing rather well.
The suggestion that he's undercutting top brands and performance by £30 is a big claim though because people have already mentioned that his clay loads don't necessarily even look the part :clover: , this isn't a criticism but you have to walk the walk as well as talk it, besides we will need to put the claim to test by doing some shooting and testing. B)
Presently the standout brand in the mid level performance/availability/quality stakes is the Fiocchi range and FBlacks in particular, ProperCartidges needs to be cheaper not the same, that's the point George is missing !
Who defines what capacity is. To the guy who is totally motivated by money and wants to earn as much as possible then capacity may well be 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.
For others that actually want a life it might be 8 hours a day, for 5 days a week and I am sure there are plenty of people out there that would happily reduce their hours even more providing they earn enough to be comfortable.
Not everyone in this world wants to be the next billionaire, some people prefer a good work - life balance.
I have a small business that provides me with enough money to get by. I don't live in a massive house and I drive a 7 year old car but I have enough free time to go pigeon shooting pretty much when I want. I spend a lot of time training my 5 dogs during the day and I am there for my daughter every day when she gets in from school.
Yes I could work a lot harder, expand, employ more staff, diversity into other areas. All the things that everyone tells me I need to do, but I am happy as the proverbial pig in **** with my life and don't want to.
There have been lots of comments throughout this thread about George NEEDS to do this and George NEEDS to do that. Well he only needs to do what HE wants to do and nothing else.
Jonny English
Well-known member
Truth be told probably 99% of shooters can only tell a cartridge is of mid or top range because the seller and it's marketing and price tag tell us it's top range. You could take a black gold and put it in a velocity case and the majority of shooters would have no clue of the difference. How do you tell, recoil and breaks?
Yesterday we shot Grimsthorpe, the pool shoot had some good distance standard and midi birds. 3 of us shot it, one with black golds and 5/8ths, one with eley vip and 5/8ths and me with velocity plus and 1/4. My breaks were equally as good if not better at distance than the other two, recoil the same if again not a little less. So where was the difference, brass, marketing and price tag.
The point of my post is, we take the manufacturers word of how good a cartridge is from the big boys, so you have to give George the same benefit. But his come out at £30 a thou cheaper. I will stick with my budget cartidges as I could shoot anything and still miss. But I think George deserves a bot more respect than he appears to be getting in this thread at times.
Yesterday we shot Grimsthorpe, the pool shoot had some good distance standard and midi birds. 3 of us shot it, one with black golds and 5/8ths, one with eley vip and 5/8ths and me with velocity plus and 1/4. My breaks were equally as good if not better at distance than the other two, recoil the same if again not a little less. So where was the difference, brass, marketing and price tag.
The point of my post is, we take the manufacturers word of how good a cartridge is from the big boys, so you have to give George the same benefit. But his come out at £30 a thou cheaper. I will stick with my budget cartidges as I could shoot anything and still miss. But I think George deserves a bot more respect than he appears to be getting in this thread at times.
I have to agree
I couldn't tell the difference between a mid or top end cart except for the price, the only thing I really notice is recoil and how much i have to scrub the barrels at the end of a session, even that can be weather dependent.
I think George does deserve more credit that he is given since he is obviously brave enough to take a leap of faith against a very well established market
good luck to him
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In this particular context I was referring to his machines capacity which he's on record elsewhere as saying are not running at full capacity and I agree with everything else you say.
The Velocity+ are about as good as it gets for so called budget shells so I agree totally but I have shot a good many other shells which are good but not as good as some people need, I personally find cheaper loads tend to give crumbly breaks (due perhaps to softer shot which doesn't hold so well) once you get beyond say 35+ yards, harder lead seems to produce more impressive breaks all things being equal.
propercartridges
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righto lads and lasses i am coming down the a1 from durham to cambridge with another 16 000 copper carts for 2 existing lads then am going over to mildenhall on a little pigeon shoot then am driving to find a bed between mildenhall and capel st mary travellodge then wed morning am going to great oakley to pick up powder outa my storeage then am heading back to durham so if any body wants to meet me for a slab of 250 or more at 50 quid inc vat you have close on 700 miles to meet so surely there must be one or two of you on that route so then you can try them so final word is thats best i can do at least till month end to see the lead and euro job for buying more stuff in so thanks for your interest in my carts cheers george a 66 year old pensioner
and as reguards a bit dirty barrels do you not clean your guns after use wots a bit of double base powder anyway see wot kingo says saving him a few bob over 30 quid a though cheers george
eye mr hamster but is mr scott ganna work for nowt how much is he ganna clag on for his bit think aboot it noo you dinnit seem like a daft lad :angel: :wink: cheers george
and as reguards a bit dirty barrels do you not clean your guns after use wots a bit of double base powder anyway see wot kingo says saving him a few bob over 30 quid a though cheers george
Surely you can talk to him about dropping a pallet off and do them a touch cheaper so he's not doing them for a laugh, how else are you going to get new people getting to see what your cartridges are like ?!? The place is teeming on a Sunday, I'm sure people will jump at the chance of trying something new.
I'm a bit reluctant having 3 thou when I've not even seen or fired one.
Some major UK makers may make their own shot but I'd take a flying guess that they buy in the components you're listing above.
Manufacturing efficiency is a numbers game. Unit costs come down as volumes and thus buying power increase. In the same way, the greater the utilisation of the machinery, the less each unit costs to produce.
For an otherwise identical product spec., there's a considerable gross margin difference between making 10,000/week and 100,000/week.
Jim Wheeler
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Granted that what you say is true up to a point.But, Take into consideration capital expenditure on the machinery to blow mold plastic, assembling cases and so on, it certainly is not worth it at George's level, but this makes him open to erratic supplies, and as he said earlier, fetching and carrying what he needs. if it is "in house" you have a much easier process to control and can make a smaller profit and rely more on numbers for profit, I might add that propellant and primers are not the sort of thing to produce cheaply or safely! best leave that to specialist manufacturing.
propercartridges
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like i said chaps other than a few fibre wads made in dursley and a bit lead wot gamebore makes thats your wack i may stand to be corrected but thats the score its cheap lead i am after coz yous lot do not appear to want good swag i thought every body wants good gear but seeminly not but as said before lets wait till month end for june price so see yous all soon cheers george
if you have a jcb machine and one man giz you say 50 quid to dig a hole how happy are you when another bids you 30 quid to do the same job ask yourself that chaps same job less money whats that they say no good been a busy fool just think about it cheers george you see chaps i am getting good money for my clay carts but the people who buy them know its the best of gear
they generaly want 10 per cent per turn no need for you alone mr hamster get your mates to share with you cheers george
if you have a jcb machine and one man giz you say 50 quid to dig a hole how happy are you when another bids you 30 quid to do the same job ask yourself that chaps same job less money whats that they say no good been a busy fool just think about it cheers george you see chaps i am getting good money for my clay carts but the people who buy them know its the best of gear
Doctor Lecter
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ive enjoyed this thread ,and I feel there is a massive opportunity for a smashing chap like George , but I think we are flogging a dead horse and besides my head is starting to hurt ! nite nite all .
PhilR
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I don't bother reading the PW thread any more, and I've reached the same conclusion with this one.
propercartridges
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well maybe it has after all sunk in to you all is that i do not make a cheap cart for clays at the moment due to the high price of components and the lead and euro exchange rate but please let these words be rembered if i take a 28 gram cart and print it for pigeons or game i can easily get my 200 plus 220 for fibre do yourselves a favour and price 28 gram game loads then see if i am daft by been a busy fool cheers all george
hamster cheers for this but maybe they got the message and stop the thread coz at the moment i cannot make cheap carts and we realy are going in circles i told you this in the beggining but thanks all the same cheers happy shooting chaps and bye for now george 07714 323 909
