No. He just said it's all relative to the speed the clay is moving at. I get the impression that unless we all say lead is king then you're not gonna stop.
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bordergun
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Yes, you are absolutely correct but why is that wrong? Isn't the intention of this forum intended to try to be of help to shooters? In other words, polite, meaningful, helpful discussion so that you can break more targets?
And if some one could show you how much that was, wouldn't that be an advantage? If not, why not?
And if some one could show you how much that was, wouldn't that be an advantage? If not, why not?
Daz W
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I'll have a trawl and post a link, unless Ben beats me to it.
Daz W
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bordergun
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Isn't that info. the same as in the article I wrote for Sporting Clays magazine years ago: "No Magic Method." For interested in reading it, please go here:- www.peteblakeley.com On the drop down you can read a selection of articles that were written about 25 years ago....... including that one.
Please click on LESSONS and on the drop down you will find the article.
Please click on LESSONS and on the drop down you will find the article.
It's called difference of opinion. You have a meathod but seem completely unable to see anything other than your own thoughts. In the nicest possible way you are the last person I would listen to for advice. I can't relate to clay coaching but in the golfing world there are many different ways to skin a cat. 4+4 is 8 but so is 6 + 2. A good coach needs to have lots of different tools in his tool box, not just the one. This happens in golf all the time with one dimensional coaches. Perfect if you happen to fall into that way of teaching but catastrophic to your game if it doesn't. I have no doubt that teaching someone with Lead as the primary focus might work for some but when your views are aligned with the sale of your books it kind of destroys any credibility.
I have litteraly doubled my kill count after one lesson and we didn't discuss lead once. Surley that has to say something?
Here’s my 10p worth as a beginner. I’m logical to a fault, partly to do with my background in Engineering and Quality. So this works for me.
I’m assuming that ‘Lead’ is the horizontal and vertical distance away from the clay that the barrel/shot needs to be, to hit it. Whether it’s perceived lead or actual, that definition works for me. So if the lead is correct I’ll hit it, if the lead is wrong I’ll miss it.
However, the final actual lead given is the ‘effect’. The cause(s) of that effect (the actual lead given) are many and varied. Even with my extremely limited knowledge and experience I can think of several causes.
1) I don’t know how much lead I should be giving it, so it’s aimed wrong.
2) my mount is incorrect so I’m not aiming where I think I’m aiming.
3) the fit is incorrect so I’m not aiming where I think I’m aiming.
4) I’m shooting targets way beyond my skill level and get left behind.
5) I stop just before pulling the trigger, without even knowing it.
6) I look up as I pull the trigger, to see the clay smash.
7) I’m distracted during the process.
8) Fatigue if I’ve done too many clays.
9) eyesight issues (known or unknown)
10) using an inappropriate technique for the clay(s) in question.
I have to say that the books in question have helped me with issue 1). Because of my character I needed a logical, measurable way of understanding it. Gut feel didn’t work in any of my lessons. So I’ve now got a basic way of thinking “it will need about that much”.
However, as a beginner, items 2) to 10) screw me up; sometimes one of them, sometimes multiple. There will be lots more that I haven’t even thought of.
So when I go, I’m trying to get into a very specific process, to do things correctly, consistently. Because to me, ALL of the above must be important.
If I don’t know how much lead to give it, and I do everything else right, I’ll miss. If I do know how much lead to give it and I do other things wrong, I’ll miss. So they all must matter.
I shall now retire to a darkened room, while everyone laughs at the newbie who has got it completely wrong.
I’m assuming that ‘Lead’ is the horizontal and vertical distance away from the clay that the barrel/shot needs to be, to hit it. Whether it’s perceived lead or actual, that definition works for me. So if the lead is correct I’ll hit it, if the lead is wrong I’ll miss it.
However, the final actual lead given is the ‘effect’. The cause(s) of that effect (the actual lead given) are many and varied. Even with my extremely limited knowledge and experience I can think of several causes.
1) I don’t know how much lead I should be giving it, so it’s aimed wrong.
2) my mount is incorrect so I’m not aiming where I think I’m aiming.
3) the fit is incorrect so I’m not aiming where I think I’m aiming.
4) I’m shooting targets way beyond my skill level and get left behind.
5) I stop just before pulling the trigger, without even knowing it.
6) I look up as I pull the trigger, to see the clay smash.
7) I’m distracted during the process.
8) Fatigue if I’ve done too many clays.
9) eyesight issues (known or unknown)
10) using an inappropriate technique for the clay(s) in question.
I have to say that the books in question have helped me with issue 1). Because of my character I needed a logical, measurable way of understanding it. Gut feel didn’t work in any of my lessons. So I’ve now got a basic way of thinking “it will need about that much”.
However, as a beginner, items 2) to 10) screw me up; sometimes one of them, sometimes multiple. There will be lots more that I haven’t even thought of.
So when I go, I’m trying to get into a very specific process, to do things correctly, consistently. Because to me, ALL of the above must be important.
If I don’t know how much lead to give it, and I do everything else right, I’ll miss. If I do know how much lead to give it and I do other things wrong, I’ll miss. So they all must matter.
I shall now retire to a darkened room, while everyone laughs at the newbie who has got it completely wrong.
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bordergun
Well-known member
Dave 3 Please forgive me but my replies on here are absolutely not "a difference of opinion." They are based on science and trigonometry, not hyperbole. As you will read in the above mentioned article, the window of opportunity for a maintained lead shot is scientifically proven to be better than with any other method. This is because that is the ONLY method that syncronizes the gun and target at the time of pulling the trigger ie, they are doing the same speed. The other methods (swing through and pull away) both have variable gunspeeds and for competitive shotgunning they are not as consistent.
And of course, top shooters use ALL the methods because if one fails, they need to adjust accordingly by using another method. But to do that, they need to know the lead.
And of course, top shooters use ALL the methods because if one fails, they need to adjust accordingly by using another method. But to do that, they need to know the lead.
We'll, the chap I have lessons with said you're wrong. That to me is a difference of opinion
bordergun
Well-known member
Peejay. I am thrilled that the books helped and I regularly get similar e mails from clients saying the same. You will find that the books will give you a logical way to decipher the variables of every target on a SC course in hours instead of years and reasons 2-10 will eventually get better. But seeing the correct lead is what makes a big difference and the books work for that. That's why many of my clients very quickly become Masterclass shotgunners and in some cases World Champions. And no, I won't disclose them on here.
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bordergun
Well-known member
Of course he does. Hours instead of years. It shouldn't be hard to figure out.
To hit a golf ball low you need to have forward shaft lean and a slightly closed club face with an abbreviated follow through. Those are based on scientific fact. I can tell you with certainty there are multiple ways to achieve the above. Great if your only way of coaching gets the results but you're gonna lose customers when it doesn't and you ruin their game
bordergun
Well-known member
Dave 3 I wish you the best of luck with the lessons.
Daz W
Well-known member
Peejay, bang on, all of these can cause a miss. One thing your post highlighted to me is your use of the word "aimed". We are pointing, not aiming. If you are trying to aim and measure lead by focusing on the rib and measuring lead at the gun end, there's a pretty good chance you'll stop the gun and miss behind. There are times when doing this may be beneficial, but as newbie, now is not the time.
As a little experiment, point your finger at a aircraft flying overhead. Bet you were focused on the aircraft, rather then your finger. Now try it aiming at it by keeping your focus on your finger. Much harder. Even more so when you're moving with it it and then trying to apply lead.
Sorry for a stupid question. I am guilty of keeping focus on the clay but when the time comes to pull ahead and pull the trigger I focus on the area I'm shooting into and switch my attention off the clay to the kill point. If you are measuring lead then how can you tell if you are 1,2,3,4 ft infront if you are looking at the clay and not the barrel and bead?
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Daz W
Well-known member
Not a stupid question at all. As you're applying lead your eyes will still be focused on the target. You'll still see the gap between clay and rib, but the rib won't be in focus. The lead you're applying is at target distance. It's if we start swapping focus to the rib/bead and start measuring at the end of the gun that it usually when it goes wrong. There are instances where you may want to do this in the future on some particular targets, but for now we're doing the basics. Keep your eye on the target and count how many bits it broke into.
As for trying to exactly measure distance; don't. People are crap at measuring distances without measuring equipment, even more so at distance. If a clay is in clear sky, I may think I gave it 6 ft of lead. You may see it as 4. You'll build up your own sight picture of what lead is required for different targets over time. Most instructors when teaching a newbie will let them estimate the lead, then tell them to halve it/double it in the event of a miss, assuming the method was correct.
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bordergun
Well-known member
Daz W. Absolutely first class post and I agree 100%. Especially the part where you say quote:- "People are crap at measuring distances, especially at distances" That is because of perspective and I say exactly the same thing in the Unit Lead book. That's exactly why I wrote book and advised seeing lead at the muzzle instead of out there at the target.
More and more shooters and top coaches (I'm happy to provide hard evidence if necessary) are finding out that the process of building up a library of sight pictures is very, very easy by doing it that way, hours instead of years and when the book came out in 2007 the reviews were excellent. But then, for some reason, some started to rubbish the system. I can only think that was because it was teaching shooters too fast and instead of shooters taking multiple lessons, they didn't.
As I have said before, I am very, very proud of the books. It was completely new, rational and logical way to learn to apply the correct lead to every target on a SC course. There is the actual testimonial letter on my web. site from a guy called Mark L Kiddie that won everything there was to win back then when the book was first published "Congratulations on writing the definitive book on target leads."
But unfortunately, anything new is often viewed with suspicion and hostility. And that's a shame, because the sales are increasing which should tell you that the system actually works.
More and more shooters and top coaches (I'm happy to provide hard evidence if necessary) are finding out that the process of building up a library of sight pictures is very, very easy by doing it that way, hours instead of years and when the book came out in 2007 the reviews were excellent. But then, for some reason, some started to rubbish the system. I can only think that was because it was teaching shooters too fast and instead of shooters taking multiple lessons, they didn't.
As I have said before, I am very, very proud of the books. It was completely new, rational and logical way to learn to apply the correct lead to every target on a SC course. There is the actual testimonial letter on my web. site from a guy called Mark L Kiddie that won everything there was to win back then when the book was first published "Congratulations on writing the definitive book on target leads."
But unfortunately, anything new is often viewed with suspicion and hostility. And that's a shame, because the sales are increasing which should tell you that the system actually works.
bordergun
Well-known member
Ben. I'm in Wyoming at the moment designing a SC course. I believe you are already over here doing lessons and as I said before if you are ever in my area and I have nothing on I will be happy to shoot a round with you. You will find out very quickly if I can hit them or not. You can even post the outcome on here.
k80ben
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I think as we can categorise people’s levels. If you take the top 25 in the world they would all disagree with everything you’re saying. These guys are also the top instructors.
Considering u have never been in the worlds top 500 shots or instructors what would make the public think your way works over the way these guys that are doing it version.
I admire the fact you’re a trier and u trick a few into buying a book. And you probably a good instructor for the very beginner and every sport has a place for the start up coach. I just think the peddling of your book and false claims is getting nauseas
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