Shot size, load and patterning

[aynesie]

I've seen discussions on here talking about changing cartridges being more effective than changing chokes. 

Can someone explain the correlation between shot size and load and how it affects patterning please. I always assumed that if I switched from 7.5 to 9 that the pattern size would be the same but the number of pellets simply increases within that circle increasing your chances.

 

[Will Hewland]

Had this discussion at length on another thread, but larger shot tends to make a smaller diameter pattern. Bigger pellets deform less, bang into each other less, are less affected by wind resistance. People usually choose large shot size (like 7) for more distant targets. If the pattern did spread the same as 9s the gaps between pellets at range would be huge. Remember you have far fewer pellets with bigger sizes. 

 

[Steve1066]

Makes sense to me Will

 

[Westward]

It's the discussion that never ends... Personally I've never been able to work out exactly what can be learned from patterning. It can be fun to waste some time messing around and shooting at pattern boards but how do you relate what you're seeing to what happens out there shooting moving targets on the course? In other words what is the ideal pattern size? What is the ideal pattern density? 

i've asked a couple of top shots about this and as yet not one of them has admitted to testing patterns. Basically they test on real targets and go from there.

 

[Will Hewland]

It's the discussion that never ends... Personally I've never been able to work out exactly what can be learned from patterning. It can be fun to waste some time messing around and shooting at pattern boards but how do you relate what you're seeing to what happens out there shooting moving targets on the course? In other words what is the ideal pattern size? What is the ideal pattern density? 

i've asked a couple of top shots about this and as yet not one of them has admitted to testing patterns. Basically they test on real targets and go from there.

It’s certainly the case that this lark is 99% about where to point the gun, so patterning isn’t a vital part of the sport. I have found that choke and cartridge characteristics are about HOW a clay breaks and rarely WHETHER it breaks. (I’m not talking about the 100+yard you tube challenge clays). I have certainly found that when I use a cartridge that shows a good even pellet distribution when patterned, I get a better overall set of kills and a better sense of when I am off centre on clays. 

 

[Geordieboy]

I've seen discussions on here talking about changing cartridges being more effective than changing chokes. 

Can someone explain the correlation between shot size and load and how it affects patterning please. I always assumed that if I switched from 7.5 to 9 that the pattern size would be the same but the number of pellets simply increases within that circle increasing your chances.

Hi Aynesie,

It was probably me that was on about the patterning of shells.  I am a Engineer and Anal about it!  

I have now patterned about  40 shells in varous wads and shot sizes through 3 guns now.  My reasoning was I wanted a tight 7 shot trap shell for long targets and an open 8/9 shot shell that I can use out to 30yds.  My guns are now fixed choke LF/LF Mk38 trap guns.  I found that patterning a typcial plaswad 7 shot at 20yds, my pattern was about 8" in diameter, and wholly useless for English sporting at my skill level.   A Typical 9 shot with 2% antimony only opened that to about 12".

So Changing to 8/9 shot with a BIOR wad (Plaswad with petals removed) gave patterns from 18" to 20" at 20yds, far more forgiving. So now, I use a Bior Shell out to 30yds (to great effect I may add).  I also shoot a 7.5 shot with a full plaswad out to 60yds and that breaks everything I need it to and keep a box of tight patterning 6.5's for beyond that.

A good 5% antimony shot shows how the patterns are more dense for any given range due to the shot not deforming during the shot cycle.  

I know what works for me, and that is truthfully a big part of it.  

If you want to keep it simple, buy a good 7.5 shot cartridge and they will break everything near and far....... as long as you put it in the right place as Will has already pointed out!

 

[FESkent]

Geordieboy good to be anal for I too have also done quite a lot of pattern testing, fibre wad cartridges and whilst it may not make you a better shot it does show that not all cartridges are equivalent in terms of pattern. A very useful tool for evaluating cartridges/chokes is

http://www.shotgun-insight.com/intro.html

it allows a photo of the pattern to be used to do all the hard work of analysis.

Not done any plastic wads as the local grounds are fibre only and possibly less issues with plastic wads given they seal the bore better and each wad is identical (given how they are manufactured) unlike fibre wads.

Various but limited manufactures of the over powder cards and fibre wads used in fibre wad cartridges, finding the cartridges which use the ones best suited for your gun which may or may not be back-bored by pattern testing is a worthwhile exercise.

 

[chesterse]

Hi Aynesie,

It was probably me that was on about the patterning of shells.  I am a Engineer and Anal about it!  

I have now patterned about  40 shells in varous wads and shot sizes through 3 guns now.  My reasoning was I wanted a tight 7 shot trap shell for long targets and an open 8/9 shot shell that I can use out to 30yds.  My guns are now fixed choke LF/LF Mk38 trap guns.  I found that patterning a typcial plaswad 7 shot at 20yds, my pattern was about 8" in diameter, and wholly useless for English sporting at my skill level.   A Typical 9 shot with 2% antimony only opened that to about 12".

So Changing to 8/9 shot with a BIOR wad (Plaswad with petals removed) gave patterns from 18" to 20" at 20yds, far more forgiving. So now, I use a Bior Shell out to 30yds (to great effect I may add).  I also shoot a 7.5 shot with a full plaswad out to 60yds and that breaks everything I need it to and keep a box of tight patterning 6.5's for beyond that.

A good 5% antimony shot shows how the patterns are more dense for any given range due to the shot not deforming during the shot cycle.  

I know what works for me, and that is truthfully a big part of it.  

If you want to keep it simple, buy a good 7.5 shot cartridge and they will break everything near and far....... as long as you put it in the right place as Will has already pointed out!

Hi Geordieboy,

Very interesting, can you reveal what brand of Bior you use?

Thanks.

 

[Geordieboy]

Hi Geordieboy,

Very interesting, can you reveal what brand of Bior you use?

Thanks.

I've tried only 3 so far. Mary Arm Bior 8s, Fiocchi F3 Biors9's (8.5 shot), and Hull Pro-Piston 9 shot.

Crikey they all shred clays.  If I had my way, I would shoot the Mary Arm shells, but at 360/1000 I am happy to shoot either the Fiocchi or the Hulls.  

I just like a larger shot size for rabbits, but the 9's have so many pellets striking at 30 yds it makes no difference.  I do use a larger shot size on a quartering rabbit as my old dog used to retrieve whole shot rabbit clays with loads of pellet strikes on the rim and the clay travelled on apparently unmolested.

 

[chesterse]

I've tried only 3 so far. Mary Arm Bior 8s, Fiocchi F3 Biors9's (8.5 shot), and Hull Pro-Piston 9 shot.

Crikey they all shred clays.  If I had my way, I would shoot the Mary Arm shells, but at 360/1000 I am happy to shoot either the Fiocchi or the Hulls.  

I just like a larger shot size for rabbits, but the 9's have so many pellets striking at 30 yds it makes no difference.  I do use a larger shot size on a quartering rabbit as my old dog used to retrieve whole shot rabbit clays with loads of pellet strikes on the rim and the clay travelled on apparently unmolested.

I was seriously impressed with the Hulls when they first came out but moved away from them due to price. Also tried the Fiocchis but found them to be a bit thumpy. I see Express do one also.

 

[nohoper]

Can anyone remember the testing of pattern and shot string carried out on a moving plate I seem to remember there was a full set of tests reported on in a magazine but for the life of me can’t remember too many details

 

[Nickredhill]

I'd really like to understand more about the difference between 21g, 24g and 28g for clays?
It seems it wouldn't matter much as long as the clay is broken??

 

[Paul120]

Can anyone remember the testing of pattern and shot string carried out on a moving plate I seem to remember there was a full set of tests reported on in a magazine but for the life of me can’t remember too many details

I'd really like to understand more about the difference between 21g, 24g and 28g for clays?
It seems it wouldn't matter much as long as the clay is broken??

Bit of an old thread this. I remember the moving plate test but don't know where it was published.

I did see the YouTube video in the link. Good to watch from the beginning for background info etc but be patient as the the interesting stuff starts about halfway through.

 

[Will Hewland]

Shot string is a very academic pointless distraction to a shooter IMO. Of course it exists and it’s great to see it in slo-mo, but as the whole string arrives at the clay in such a short time, it acts as a flat pattern on a pattern plate. There may be some relevance if clays travelled at 500mph. They don’t.

 

[Freddypip]

I agree with Will however it might have some small but irrelevant effect.

Assuming we are shooting at a clay 40 yards away – that’s 120 feet and the shoot on average (over that 40 yards) travels at 1,200 foot per second, it takes 1/10th of a second to arrive. If, as the video suggests, the string could be 12 feet long by then it would be 1/100th of a second from the first to last pellet. That’s not long and can probably be discounted . . . .

The issue is how far does the clay travel in 1/100th of a second. At 50 feet per second we are talking 6 inches which might not be factor – if’s its faster it will be more and if slower less.

In my view the shot string doesn’t matter but it does incline me, when in doubt, to add lead as opposed to take it away – particularly on fast crossers which are some distance away. It’s quite possible with a (rare) clay 60 yards away traveling at 100 feet per second for it to be an extra 'pattern' which the clay runs into. Looking at the above numbers in a rough & ready way, the shot string can be an 'additional' 1/10th of the lead whatever the clay speed and distance - which might not matter but sometimes - and I would say very rarely - might.

Where I think the above numbers fall down – and this is not a prompt for repeat discussions on previous threads or posts – is that we often don't see lead accurately enough to mess with it by a 1/10th etc. Also, and this rubbishes all of the above for me - it's there whatever & always has been - we have always judged lead from the experience of what the cartridge breaks or not and we don't need to break it down into lead & shot string, etc. It's a hit or it isn't.

The shot string may be interesting enough for those with a technical mind but it practice it is best forgotten & particularly when the guns in hand. I'm going to forget about it now.

 

[vmax1010]

Definitely give me girth over length anytime

 

[Iggy]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but this is resonating with me at the moment.

Always on the lookout for a cost effective cartridge I recently bought a few ‘000 Sellier & Bellot Trap Super 28g in English 7’s to use for sporting clays. Iv’e been using 8’s for a few years now….Eley Blues, Fblacks etc so was a bit uneasy about the change.

I was told by the seller they patterned tighter than usual, so I stuck 2 x Muller U1’s in the DT11 and set off at Garlands for one of Steve Lovatt’s registered shoots.

I finished on an 87 which is quite good for me, at one of Steve’s shoots….but I was quite shocked at just how well the 7’s destroyed targets at some distance with relatively open chokes. I didn’t swap chokes the entire round, close or far.

It’s early days, and I know you need to point the gun in the right place, but it seems to be a combo that is working for me at the moment…..so I’ll persevere.

 

[Bavarian]

The barrels work well on the DT11, it is not just about chokes.