Subsonic?

[CharlesP]

I would like to ask those with experience of using subsonic cartridges about their experiences.

Looking at the claimed muzzle velocity of the cartridges on Just Cartridges' website it becomes rapidly apparent that a subsonic cartridge's pellets are travelling rather slower straight out of the muzzle, but I have absolutely no clue as to the extent that affects their shooting characteristics. Asking around I have heard views that range from the "Makes very little difference" right down to "Absolute rubbish"

So just how much difference is there that affects one's shooting? 

What does the team think?

 

[Hamster]

What would you be using them on ? I can categorically tell you that very slow cartridges (not even subsonic as such) will affect the breaking ability of the pellets and it will also make a perceptible difference to lead pictures. Based on that and despite not having sub sonic shell experience I would say they'll be rubbish compared to standard cartridges unless you're shooting very close practice type targets or maybe decoying pigeon at sub 25 yards or something. 

 

[Wonko the Sane]

You best be having impeccable technique - particularly follow thru.

Sub-sonic to me is like so many things shotgun - - what's the point?

 

[CharlesP]

The point, I'm told, is noise reduction.

The question is really about me deciding if it's a good idea to go shooting clays at a ground where one has to use them.

 

[Doctor Lecter]

as the name suggests sub sonic = slow       not much help on clays  I would have thought !     point 22 rimfire  fine on rabbits though !      

 

[CharlesP]

I think Wonko may have put the dampers on it, what with the requirement for "impeccable trechnique"!

 

[yodaz]

I think subsonic shells will still be loud unless you use a moderator with subsonic shells.

I've never used subsonic shotgun shells myself I'm amusing subsonic shotgun shells work the same as rifles.

I'm interested to find out the answer now.

 

[ChrisPackham]

I have only used them through a fully moderated 410 on pigeon and rabbits.  Absolutely rubbish on pigeon, great for short range rabbit stalking where 22 has ricochet risk.

As Hamsters says the sub sonic carts make a huge difference in energy.

 

[schmokinn]

The point, I'm told, is noise reduction.

The question is really about me deciding if it's a good idea to go shooting clays at a ground where one has to use them.

No would be the answer mate,will screw up your shooting elsewhere.

 

[CharlesP]

As you saw last week, Schmokinn, the "screwing up of my shooting" requires no assistance...

 

[Critter]

I believe Mendip Shooting Ground, who insist you use their cartridges, only have subsonic fibre.  There's a noise restriction in their planning consent, I think.  I'm not exactly a brilliant shot, but whenever I've shot at Mendip I've not really noticed the difference between their fibre cartridges and others.  Cleaning the barrels later is a different matter - I've never seen such a filthy mess that's left behind.  And quite difficult to get clean.  I seem to recall they're cartridges are made by Lyalvale but badged as Mendip SG.

 

[Jim Wheeler]

An interesting question this, and having had a fair bit of experience in subsonics, we had interesting results from 12g 28g no7 shot, reloaded down to sub 1000FPS . suffice to say there is not the big difference you might think, out to 40m there is no discernible difference in lead or kill result on a clay. which covers most target presentations ,  This was proven in a practical way too, shooting FITASC targets, not ESP, by some very good shooters,(who don`t miss very often !) who were issued with 45 normal and 5 subsonic cartridges, impossible to tell them apart visually, only when fired the sub is distinctly a different sound, but the target broken the same as a normal velocity of 1300FPS. this was done as a bit of fun too, slipping in a sub to other guys pockets over the years, who still broke the clays ! 

but ,like most things shooting, you have your own opinions about cartridges, chokes and so on, 

 

[schmokinn]

The velocity of shot drops quite rapidly after leaving the muzzle that is why FPS muzzle velocity seem to have little to do with quantifiable lead differences.

The real question is do subsonic shells decelerate as quickly or less quickly relatively,i am no physics guru.

But if a 1500fps cartridge looses half its velocity by 20m and a 1000fps does the same to 500fps surely if nothing else the quality of the breaks will be worse therefore giving a false impression of accuracy and i am sure at 40m it would be even more obvious?

Also Subsonic shells being what they are probably have lower quality softer shot which will at range failt to or give less convincing breaks.

Speed of sound at sea level roughly 1100fps.

So i guess they may still break the clay but probably not the ones you were only hitting with the odd flyer before

Alternatively wait till they build a new road in,club house,skeet and trap ranges so you can shoot what you like.......or buy tour own golf cart

As you saw last week, Schmokinn, the "screwing up of my shooting" requires no assistance...

I abstained for a fortnight,made sure i was fully hydrated,ate the correct type of food at the correct time,was completely free from any distractions and was under no stress and last weekend i shot like a blind man with no fingers..the worst i have shot in years.

My shooting can be variable distractions and fluffy rabbits,but Sunday i shot on my own with no pressure,no rush and a great frame of mind..i achieved the worse registered score i have shot in years  :???:

 

[CharlesP]

"Alternatively wait till they build a new road in,club house,skeet and trap ranges so you can shoot what you like.......or buy tour own golf cart"

I'm sure I don't know what you mean!

 

[chippy]

A faster cartridge slows down at a greater rate than a slower one when it leaves the barrel. So the difference is not as great as you may think.

 

[Hamster]

Those who think speed makes little difference need to shoot a sub 12 ft lbs .22 air rifle at 600 fps against one doing 30 ft lbs and 900 fps, both will go through a pigeon/rabbit at 20-30 yards but the FAC version will be visibly superior nonetheless. Stretch the range to 50 + yards and the difference in performance will be stark. 

I once took back 900 Victory 480's which had been loaded to within a whisker of being subsonic (for recoil purposes), they not only failed to break some going aways but the lead picture on a crosser was sooooo different to a normal load I literally broke the back bird of a simmo pair while aiming for the lead clay. Trust me they are sh*te. Provably, absolutely, noticeably, everythingably sh*te compared to regular loads. 

 

[ChrisPackham]

Those who think speed makes little difference need to shoot a sub 12 ft lbs .22 air rifle at 600 fps against one doing 30 ft lbs and 900 fps, both will go through a pigeon/rabbit at 20-30 yards but the FAC version will be visibly superior nonetheless. Stretch the range to 50 + yards and the difference in performance will be stark. 

I once took back 900 Victory 480's which had been loaded to within a whisker of being subsonic (for recoil purposes), they not only failed to break some going aways but the lead picture on a crosser was sooooo different to a normal load I literally broke the back bird of a simmo pair while aiming for the lead clay. Trust me they are sh*te. Provably, absolutely, noticeably, everythingably sh*te compared to regular loads. 

Completelily agree, it’s possible to hear shot rattling off pigeon, can’t help with breaking clays.

 

[Hamster]

Completelily agree, it’s possible to hear shot rattling off pigeon, can’t help with breaking clays.

If it really made little difference then cartridge manufacturers would load everything around 1000 fps which would save on powder, reduce noise levels and if certain old wives tales are to be believed pattern quality would improve too   and we'd all be much happier as the kick would be much less as well. 

 

[CharlesP]

I'm not convinced about the manufacturers doing that, Hamster. They are all keen to market their stuff and the suggestion of "faster", "longer range", "more powerful" will always exert a pull on quite a percentage of their customer base. 

But this thread has provided me with much food for thought. I'm tending towards not bothering to avail myself of facilities that require subsonics. This might provide me with interesting social  choices if the gang with whom I shoot decide differently.