target angle

[40UP]

You know something DT and this is no dig come to France you won't see hardly anybody using a gun hold position they nearly all hold on the centre of the fosse and with good reason gun holds are just an insurance policy for those who fear certain targets if you are confident shooting in both left and right direction ... which a good shooter should you wont have any problem. Standing at an OT peg where there is a left right 45 and a right left 40 where are you holding your gun?

One foot to the right of the mark not to obscure the straight target and one foot out. Where would you hold?

 

[jwpzx9r]

I am troubled by the randomness of ABT traps. If they were developed to give a random distribution within their designed 90deg arc then pegged the motors to 65deg would not the motors spend much of their time at the limits of their range in their efforts at randomness. How would they know to randomise only in a 65deg range.

40UP I seriously doubt the randomness theory of abt when linked to fairness of the discipline. I have had many, many rounds where I came off the stand having had nearly fifty per cent of my targets in effect straight aways because of where I was standing at the time the target was thrown, don't get me wrong there was a traverse but so slight you barely had too outside it. You do not get that in OT its 40/40/20 is it not?

 

[Dog Tyred]

What I mean is that a 32.5 degree left right from peg one at abt is hardly traversing with respect to the shooter, assuming he is right handed, when you bring your gun to bare the target is almost travelling straight away. When you get a target from any peg at oOT when it says 30 or 35 or 45 that means exactly what is says on the tin the target is moving across your line of sight at the angle described I can't be more clear. There are only five straight or straight  ish targets in OT. Like it or not depending where you happen to be when the target is thrown at abt you can in fact get a target that although leaving the trap house at an angle of x degrees is actually hardly traversing at all with respect to the shooter and when the gun is brought to bare the target it travelling almost straight away from the shooter.. this does not happen in OT I cannot be more clear!

Can't disagree with anything you have said but you seem to be focussing on the RH targets from peg 1 which essentially are the same or similar to the straight or mid angle OT targets. The extreme LH targets on peg 1 at ABT are a full on 54 degrees which is a full 9 degrees wider than the most extreme OT target. At OT you only ever get 5 extreme LH and RH targets, whereas the random nature of ABT means you could end up more extreme targets per round.

In addition with OT you always set up in the same place and your max gun swing in either direction is the same whereas ABT requires various hold points depending on peg number. So why is OT so bloody hard? Must be those varying speeds?

DT

 

[jwpzx9r]

Slightly right of the mark and just above the edge of the lid although I can miss them from other positions

 

[40UP]

Its 40/40/20 John which is a deliberately uneven distribution. ABT is random, 33/33/33 can somebody stand behind an ABT line and draw a pineapple please.

 

[ips]

Dt

you are spot on my friend.

An extreme abt target from 1 or 5 is considerably more difficult than any ot target imo plus the need to ensure stance is correct and different on each peg adds to that. Yes ot has different speeds and yes ot has right and left and straight from each peg BUTabt easier to shoot than ot not imo particularly from a trench layout were the extreme exit point is extended i think not.

John i rarely disagree with you however i don't understand your points on this, maybe France are still shooting proper abt but in UK were shooting trench abt.

 

[jwpzx9r]

I know that DT but what abt allows you is the freedom to take liberties with gun hold as you have pointed out. On peg one you can have your gun right out on the edge of the fosse if you want knowing the extreme right left is almost straight in OT the is no such comfort zone if for example you have a peg with a 45 right left and a 35 left right they are both pretty heavy targets you can't favour one you have to just keep your eyes peeled Of course as has been stated OT targets are of different speeds so I suppose really good shooters may have the game pegged and favour the faster target but ME!I have to remind myself the next two are in the chambers never mind second guess where the targets are going and which of the two is the quicker

 

[Dog Tyred]

I am troubled by the randomness of ABT traps. If they were developed to give a random distribution within their designed 90deg arc then pegged the motors to 65deg would not the motors spend much of their time at the limits of their range in their efforts at randomness. How would they know to randomise only in a 65deg range.

Fred

I think the trap movements are controlled by a link arm attached to a rotor. Simply shortening the link arm narrows the trap rotation and thereby limits the angle. Therefore the trap doesn't spend anymore time on the stops.

DT

 

[jwpzx9r]

Ian its a state of mind. You have vastly more experience and are without doubt a better shooter than me... but if I had the choice of shooting a round of abt where I knew yes there is an extreme left right or right left in there but on peg one or five I also know I can take a liberty and deliberately favour that extreme target because the extreme target the other way is nearly straight. Or on the other hand shoot a round of OT where I know in every bank there is a target that is going either left or right at a rate of knots and I don't have the comfort of moving my gun to favour one because I might get the other which is nowhere near straight I would take the abt as the easier target to hit. That is only my opinion and does not come from your experience but just my inexperience logic What I do know in my limited experience is that I have had rounds of abt where nearly half the targets were near straight purely because where I stood made the angle relative to me favourable that never happens at OT or UT for that matter.

 

[ips]

My head hurts now.

John the problem with hold point to favour an extreme target for instance a left on peg 1 means that the straight one is more difficult as its not straight anymore due to it not rising straight from your hold point, everything is a compromise more so imo with abt than ot as ot crossing point is always in front plus stance is always the same. If you shot 25 abt from peg 3 it would be easier than ot because of the narrower angle but peg 1 and 5 are a different story.

Just my opinion.

Ps were is les when you need him

 

[ips]

John

i have shot abt for 28 yrs even old style abt when it was arched like dtl then they changed to straight like ot then many changes to speed and angle and i can tell you one thing it is way way harder now and much closer and in many ways harder in some respects to ot imo. Each and every discipline has its difficulties and most people favour certain disciplines due to mentality and technique. I used too favour abt but these days i seem to favour ot more particularly because of the trench layout aspect which i find is difficult for my particular style.

 

[Dog Tyred]

Oh and just for good measure, ABT can throw a high or low extreme angle target !

Right I'm off to bed.

DT

 

[jwpzx9r]

Yes Ian I do see where you are coming from there but believe it or not I don't see it that way. I have great returns on these targets I view them this way. I unlike most of my French colleagues use gun holds and hold probably as you do near the edge of the fosse knowing that the alternative target for my mind anyway is a matter of seeing it and moving my gun to it from there it is very nearly straight you only just have to be outside and barely above it it to break it. Now the scenario I am put for OT is that in a bank where you have one left 35 the other right 45 some may be good enough to favour one over the other but not me I can barely remember what each bank is! And both these targets are moving right across you line of sight you have to be quick after seeing them. Its just my take could be because I find OT more difficult that I take this view... and that is only natural if my scores were better the other way I would say the reverse was true

Les is probably staying well away.. he has issues with abt just now eh!

 

[ips]

Yes that too Greg.

Random extreme targets, its a mans game that's for sure no good for those new fangled lady specific guns with there radical lady specific measurement etc.

Oops thread drift.

 

[jwpzx9r]

Ian only every shot abt from a straight line and I have only been doing it for about a couple of years... I find FU more difficult than abt all different speeds and noting ever very straight!

DT... 40UP will know but there are a huge number of target angles and trajectories combinations for OT all nastily grouped in banks of three !

 

[** Pending Removal **]

The randomness of ABT on the new speeds / angles is what makes ABT ...in my opinion...much harder than OT.

You could have a round of mostly all sharp left and right targets when your neighbour has mostly straights. It is a frustrating discipline now....especially when you get the extreme springing teal.

The point about which is easier is simple. OT is.....because each person gets exactly the same targets and speeds as each other. Set schemes. Fairness to all. With ABT you are on a totally random throw as I have described above, at the OT speed.

Of course there are grounds who think they can set ABT and grounds who actually can set ABT....and the same goes for OT.

Not a lot of people know that :wink:

 

[ips]

Spot on tinker, for instance on sunday my 1st line was riddled with low straight, 2nd line was about what you would expect as was 3rd line BUT last line was 75% low left and low right extreme. So I reckon I had considerably more difficult targets than I would ever get at OT during two of the rounds and I had 50 degree ones which I would not get at OT.

 

[jwpzx9r]

Ian I don't know where this figure of 50 degrees comes from? The layout for ABT says that the maximum angle right or left shall be 32.5 degrees measured from the centre line of the fosse. This means that an extreme target as seen from the centre of peg 1 or 5 subtends and angle of 115 degrees to the shooter. An OT target leaving the fosse at 45 degrees viewed from the centre of the peg subtends and angle of 135 with respect to the shooter. In other words the OT target is traversing the shooter at a greater rate. These are not made up figures they are calculated facts you cannot get a 50 degree angle from a trap set to throw a maximum angle of 32.5 degrees. The extreme angle on an OT layout is always traversing the shooter faster than an ABT target when viewed from the line of sight. Now that is hard to take in without a diagram . I think the misunderstanding here is that the ABT target has a greater angle when taken from peg 3 147.5 degrees that conversely makes it actually traverse you at a lesser rate than the OT 135 degrees target but you are viewing the target from peg 5 and your eyes look to the front centre of the traphouse for the target negating the angle added from pegs 3 to 5. Draw it out and get you trig books out the OT target is moving across you faster than the ABT target. Forget the calculated angles and use the angle for line of sight to the target!!!

edit the above is boll***** Ian your figs are correct! just did a re calc.. oopps sorry and to 40UP

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Only the ABT target can traverse a shooter (when on pegs 1.2,4,5) depending on what they draw.

All the OT birds come from 3 traps directly in front of the shooter. They do not traverse the shooters in anything comparable to ABT. They throw extreme targets from what feels like a central position.

I am not even to go into the discussion of 'perceived' angles ....increased or decreased due to the shooters foot position.....because that might mean further discussion by anyone who does not understand how feet affect angles.

I feel that sometimes the 'deep' discussion on trap topics does not help all shooters....because they get lost. The ability to have a totally open mind is needed and then months of quiet contemplation and practice, perfecting the process......before deciding whether it is crap or not.

Talking of which.....I am off to ping with this new Syren and see what all the fuss is about.

 

[ips]

I am not even to go into the discussion of 'perceived' angles ....increased or decreased due to the shooters foot position.....because that might mean further discussion by anyone who does not understand how feet affect angles.

Oh go on you know you want too

This is another thing that makes OT arguably easier by comparison, you can set up foot position on mat very easily and accurately and the same on every peg. simples.