The steel thing

[TRINITY]

Well, I rest my case mi'lord. It's the biodegradable wad that is the issue, not the fact that steel shot is more expensive than lead shot.

At this time steel shot is slightly cheaper than lead shot, but the gap has been closing over the last year.
Then supply and demand economics, if lead is banned in the U.K. (and EU) will steel shot production capacity be sufficient? just a few percent of all cartridges sold in the U.K. are non toxic shot a total ban will see demand rapidly and significantly increase.  Long way to go to reach a conclusion that steel shot will always be cheaper than lead.
Who thought a few years ago a club level cartridge would be £240 plus a thousand and fast heading towards £300

Well basic economics has historically shown that as things get more and more produced numerically the cost becomes cheaper. I just feel we are being fed negative guff so if the ban comes it will give an excuse for profits to increase. 

As an aside do you watch the financial markets. Prices of everything are increasing due to energy costs, wars etc. Yet many of the top 100 FTSE companies are also producing record profits. Cartridge manufactures will be no different, find an excuse to increase margins.Brainwash their customer base so they accept it, then Bingo! take in the money.

 

[FESkent]

well prices are certainly only going up, Fiocchi has announced their new prices this evening.

 

[Cosmicblue]

Plus either the complete carts or the components are imported from the EU - so HMRC add import duty +VAT, driving the costs up still further.

 

[JoostB]

There is also another question, as a mate pointed out to me earlier today. Do we know the long term effect of steel shot on the barrels over a long period? Ok , of course it depends on how many shells you use over a given period, but has any proper research been done? I don’t mean opinions, I mean proper scientific research. 
I certainly wouldn’t fancy needing to replace barrels every so many years, especially if it was an expensive gun such as a K80 or a Perazzi. 
The steel issue is far bigger than it looks. 
 

Steel shot wearing out the barrels is a non existing problem. 
I wonder if switching to steel really will be a problem at all. Why don’t you all just buy some steel shot cartridges and try them?

 

[Cosmicblue]

A mate of mine bought 1500 BioAmmo Steel carts last year - I put a few boxes through my MX12, they broken targets just as well as lead.

 

[Les53]

Steel shot wearing out the barrels is a non existing problem. 
I wonder if switching to steel really will be a problem at all. Why don’t you all just buy some steel shot cartridges and try them?

I would like to try some, however my gun is a pretty tight 3/4 and full and only nitro proof. So that means, as far as the U.K. proof houses are concerned, it’s choked too tight for steel and not proofed for high performance steel. 
As for steel shot wearing out barrels? Well the guy that put that to me uses a 1960’s side by side game gun with old fashioned felt/fibre wads. Where he shoots, plastic wads are not allowed. So without a plastic shot cup to help contain the shot, it is in contact with the barrels, he gets some awful lead fowling in his barrels apparently! 
So as I said previously, this whole steel issue is bigger than we think. 
And as yet, we don’t even truly know if we will have to use steel, it’s likely of course, but I’m not going to alter my barrels or have them re proofed for steel until I know exactly when any move to steel is certain and I have proper information. 

 

[JoostB]

Oké, without a plastic cup I am not sure what the effect is. I can imagine that if that is what it takes ground owners will start to allow them and clean them up. No shooters is no income. 

 

[perazman]

well prices are certainly only going up, Fiocchi has announced their new prices this evening.

What percentage are we looking at?

PM.

 

[FESkent]

What percentage are we looking at?

PM.

still evaluating in detail but 10% plus

Oké, without a plastic cup I am not sure what the effect is. I can imagine that if that is what it takes ground owners will start to allow them and clean them up. No shooters is no income. 

That’s ok for large commercial grounds to buy some fancy machine to pick them up but what about the many not for profit clubs?

Then i suspect even the large commercial grounds may pass on the cost of buying, operating, maintaining such a machine.

 

[JoostB]

They don't clean up clay shards already?

 

[perazman]

still evaluating in detail but 10% plus

That’s ok for large commercial grounds to buy some fancy machine to pick them up but what about the many not for profit clubs?

Then i suspect even the large commercial grounds may pass on the cost of buying, operating, maintaining such a machine.

Thanks.

Still keeps them cheaper than most the competition hopefully.

PM.

 

[TRINITY]

I wonder if switching to steel really will be a problem at all. Why don’t you all just buy some steel shot cartridges and try them?

I would like to do that but all the grounds I use have banned steel,on the plus side they all allow plastic.  

 

[FreeShot]

Well that’s interesting to know. Especially as we are being told that no more than half choke for standard steel or high performance steel, even in guns that have steel proof barrels. 
We are also told that high performance steel shot should not be used in a gun that is not steel proof. 
Which country are you in? 

Slovenia, been shooting steel in Austria, Italy and Czech Republic...tho - been requested to not use it on a GP in Italy a couple  years ago - lead was mandatory there/then...

 

[ColinD]

still evaluating in detail but 10% plus

Funny I said last week a dealer had heard 16% and you said they are right next to you and you hadn't heard anything, now it's 10% plus, lets wait and see  

 

[perazman]

I appreciate justcartridges aren't the cheapest but as a guide, 28gm TTone plastics have gone up £50 today. £233 yesterday. £283 today. 21.5% increase. That's crazy.

PM.

Fblus up 12%.

 

[FESkent]

Funny I said last week a dealer had heard 16% and you said they are right next to you and you hadn't heard anything, now it's 10% plus, lets wait and see  

indeed we sell fiocchi cartridges their new price list arrived yesterday and is effective from tomorrow 24th February.  So last week was speculation. No increases are good news, as for actual percentage it varies across their product range 10% to 20% where they will sit in the market will depend on what the other manufactures do.

 

[TRINITY]

I appreciate justcartridges aren't the cheapest but as a guide, 28gm TTone plastics have gone up £50 today. £233 yesterday. £283 today. 21.5% increase. That's crazy.

PM.

Fblus up 12%.

£283 for TT1 wow !!!!!! especially if blues only 12% rise they should be around same price by my reckoning which seems strange

 

[Luke_(NL)]

As far as I’m aware 1370 bar is ok for high performance steel, it’s way higher than  nitro proof which I think is 930/940 bar? 
As for the clamour for the jesters hat? The marketing guys are having are jumping on the bandwagon field day!

You know, I felt sure we had a guy on here who lived and shot in Holland? Or did I imagine it? 
I’m sure we have guys on here who shoot abroad though, PhilR being one of them. We shall see. 

Several even, as far as I know. @JoostB and I have met by chance on a Dutch ground too. Similar to Joost I started getting into clay shooting well after lead was banned and I’m simply used to shooting steel. The grounds where I shoot all collectively tidy the grounds and in doing so collect most of the plaswads, which don’t traveI far upon firing.

I have attended matches in Germany where both steel and lead are allowed, but on some grounds there steel is forbidden because of the grounds hoovering up the lead to resell as scrap. If any steel is mixed in, the scrap value is halved… I asked them to sponsor my lead cartridges but rather than doing that they said I would be fined for shooting steel 

I have shot skeet with lead and steel and am hard-pressed to tell the difference. For sporting there is a question of range and trajectory, but I doubt that there are targets that can be shot with lead but not with steel. The “below half choke only” for steel isn’t a concern for modern guns and cartridges: IM works fine in my book and I wouldn’t hesitate to go tighter if I felt there was a need. 

P.S. I’m not much of a trappy, but wouldn’t shooting the birds faster assuage any fears of ill effects at range? 

 

[jasper]

I appreciate justcartridges aren't the cheapest but as a guide, 28gm TTone plastics have gone up £50 today. £233 yesterday. £283 today. 21.5% increase. That's crazy.

PM.

Fblus up 12%.

£283 for TT1 wow !!!!!! especially if blues only 12% rise they should be around same price by my reckoning which seems strange

This. By the prices I paid last time would put fblus at around £260. 

Jasper. 

 

[jasper]

Just cartridges have fblu and tt1 both at £283. Monumental  f**k up by someone. 

So cheap club shell or very good comp cartridge with 5% antimony at the same price. 

You choose. 

Jasper.